The Four Wards Podcast - Episode 454: It's the Storytime Episode!

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Four Wards Podcast. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Hey, what's up? It's Eric Brah, voice of Draven Jerks and Velkoz. And you're listening to the Four Wards podcast here to help you move forward and lead. Hello and welcome to episode 454 of the Four Wards podcast. I'm your host as usual. I'm Jack Zoman and I've got with me three other wards to help you move forward. In League of Legends, we've got Free. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Shooter, A Threw Up. [00:00:53] Speaker B: We've got Mike of many names. [00:00:55] Speaker C: We are actually Four Wards, it's true. [00:01:00] Speaker B: And we've got Pillow Pet. [00:01:02] Speaker D: Hello. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Guys. We are the Forwards podcast. We have a community Discord. Come join. The Discord link is the first thing you see in the episode description. Come join, come hang out, ask questions, post pictures of your cats. It's a great time. Now, some of us do stream on Twitch. I can be found at Twitch tv. Jacksomen. Free Shooter can be found at Twitch TV Free Shooter. That's right. There are three E's in free. And Pillow Pet can be found at Twitch tv Pillow Pet. We're still trying to bully Mike into streaming. [00:01:35] Speaker C: One more person who joins the Pod Discord server and you get to force me to do a stream. [00:01:41] Speaker B: There you go, listeners. Just one more. Just any one of you. And we'll schedule a stream. Mike will have to do it. All right, so speaking of listeners, we got some listeners who deserve some shout outs. So we're gonna give a shout out to Codex, Ninja, Pillow Pet and Robigon for supporting us at the shoutout tier. Thank you guys so much. We could not do this without you. You are paying for the hosting so that this podcast can continue to exist. It is. [00:02:10] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Greatly appreciated. Now if you want to support the podcast, head over to patreon.com the forwardspodcast $1 a month just tells us that you love us. $5 a month gets you an exclusive feed of some behind the scenes audio of our prep work before each show. And let me tell you, this week there is a lot of audio you're getting. Like 35 minutes of us just chatting about whatever the fuck came to mind while we like procrastinated on coming up with topics for this week. So you'll want to give a listen to that. I'm going to set a preview of this one just so that everyone can get a listen and see what the behind the scenes bit sounds like for a few minutes. [00:02:53] Speaker A: That's a good idea. [00:02:54] Speaker B: And then of course, it has the function in Patreon. I'm going to use it this time and I'm going to remember because I'm going to edit the show tonight after we record. $10 a month, however, would get you that exclusive feed, the same as $5 here and gets your name shouted out at the top of the podcast like Codex, Ninja, Pillow Pet and Robigon get. Last but not least, listeners, you guys answered the call for questions this week. We got questions. That doesn't mean you can stop. We need more questions. Send them in to the 4 wards podcastmail.com so we can answer your questions on the show. All right, so our actual topics for tonight, we're going to kick it off. I'm going to hand the baton over to Free Shooter because Free Shooter has been playing playing in an organized 5 stack and has some thoughts and experience to share. Yeah, Free Shooter. [00:03:49] Speaker A: So yeah, that's part of why I haven't been on the show Too much scheduling. Turns out scheduling for a full team of people who have not very consistent schedules for work, a little challenging sometimes, but we're getting it done. We're 20 in our league so far. Granted, one of those wins was by forfeit because the other team's captain did not tell his team that they had a match. That happened. [00:04:17] Speaker D: Hey, wins a win. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Yeah, wins a win. But yeah, I play mid laner and ad carry on that team because the ad carry can't make every other Saturday, the mid laner can't make Sundays and the captain can't make Monday through Thursday. So if the game's on Saturday or Sunday, I'm probably playing. But if it's on Friday, then it's them. It's, it's a whole thing. We also support quit after the first match and we had to get a new support. Luckily we actually got someone who's pretty good. It's, it's been a whole thing but God, it's the most fun I've had playing League of Legends in so long. Like playing with an organized group, like setting up and doing scrims and we're doing Fearless Draft. Fearless Draft is so much freaking fun. It actually tests the limits of your champ pools. There's so much extra strategy in Draft. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Explain Fearless Draft because I guarantee a lot of our listeners have no idea what you're talking about. [00:05:21] Speaker A: So in simple terms, the version of fearless we are using, all matches are a best of three. So the first team to win two games wins game one. Draft is as normal. It's like in pro play where you get three bands. Each side picks three, then you get two more bands. Last two picks happen in game two. All 10 champions that were played in game one off the table cannot be played if it goes to a game on either team. Nope. Like, so if I played Ash, then my team and the enemy team cannot pick Ash for the rest of the series. So if it goes to game three, there's those 10 champions that are off the board and you still get normal pick and ban. Now if a champions banned in a game, it's still viable to be picked. So there's a lot of strategy around. Sometimes we just ban things that we're going to. We want to play on red side and then first pick it on blue side. We've been doing that with Corki because oh my God, Corky is busted. And yeah, we play it mid box. [00:06:24] Speaker B: Definitely missed that one. [00:06:25] Speaker C: He does some serious damage. Now. [00:06:29] Speaker A: That true damage is naughty. [00:06:31] Speaker B: The buff to his passive was way bigger than we realized. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, but yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I even ended up playing Lux Top in one game. [00:06:45] Speaker B: What? [00:06:46] Speaker A: So it was just one of those things of they picked yone mid and we were like, okay. Our top laner says if it's like I'm pick, I'm gonna pick Pantheon because if it's top lane, then I match up great into that. And I was like, okay, I. I'm awful against the wind. Like it's a personal counter. So sure. And then they picked a poppy to counter the pantheon. So like, okay, I'll just play Lux Top into poppy and throw cues all game you on a yone middle. So it has been a ton of fun. I highly recommend, like Clash is kind of a like smaller version of that that you can do. So whenever a clash comes around, I highly recommend, like try and find a group of people. Like, yep, there's a couple different, like discords and reddits all around. Like people just looking to pick up players and teams. And like it's all bracketed at different skill levels too. Like we're in essentially, it's. They have their own tiering system. So it's not just tied to your rank, but rank plays a big part in it. And we're like the third division up, which is like kind of emerald plat tier. They're like plat emerald. I think it's. It's like E. Emerald 2 is kind of the cap. But yeah, it is absolutely bonkers amount of fun. [00:08:08] Speaker B: It's. If you've never played organized five stack games, losing in organized five stacks is Often more fun than winning in solo queue. [00:08:18] Speaker C: They are the single most fun I have ever had in league. It makes me want to play league more than anything else. To play a clash game. If you can get a clash team going that's committed to doing clash together, sometimes you'll go in and you'll play normals together and you'll just have a blue last. It's so much of a different experience not having. I'm not going to say not having toxic players because sometimes your teammates can get a little bit out of it. [00:08:47] Speaker A: But I played with some toxic. [00:08:48] Speaker C: Taking the randomness out of that last, that last couple people is such an enjoyable thing. It is the reason why I've been playing ranked recently because I haven't been doing solo queue. I've been pairing up with Pillow and Free and Jacks and I was gonna. [00:09:06] Speaker B: Say and being in comms with those people. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:09] Speaker B: And being in comms with people that you feel safe and comfortable being in comms with and talking normally, I'll say. [00:09:18] Speaker D: Like for five stacks, like, especially like in a class setting, I will say like it is a 130% different feeling than when you go into a ranked solo duo or even a flex cue because. Because of that constant communication. Like, I won't say that your rank doesn't matter, but you could be a silver player going against a emerald or plat and as long as you have like a good shot collar in your group with good communication, like that's going to even out a lot at the end when he can tell you where you're positioning and going like, hey, I need you to do this. Like it makes a huge difference. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:09:58] Speaker A: It is not a joke. [00:09:59] Speaker B: When I better player will probably out lane you, but that's it. [00:10:02] Speaker A: Yes. When I. When I first played fives back in like 2016, I want to say was the first time I was on the team legitimately in one of our. We just like were playing. No, it might have been. It was either scribble like a flex Q game or whatever the equivalent was. It's just a normal or something. I had to lane against a challenger ad carry. I got absolutely destroyed. Smashed. Demolished. We won that game. I didn't tell you how, but we did. I have clips. I got a pentakill. [00:10:35] Speaker C: Nice. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Honestly, that's the part that's actually surprising to me is that you got a pentakill in a game where you were getting demolished. [00:10:43] Speaker A: I was jinxed. It wasn't that hard back then. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Fair. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah. But yeah. And actually so there's One game I kind of want to talk about that'll transition us into our other topic because so as part of our whole weird, like, kind of six man roster thing we got going on for a scrim, we had to just like put like a scrim canceled on us. So we had to just like put together five people in the server we play in. And I played on that team, so I got to handle drafting for that, which that's a whole other experience. Like, drafting for your team is like the way you have to think and the quick decisions you have to make. I was not great at it. I made some bad snap decisions, but there was a game where I kind of got drafted into a hole because I ended up having to pick. Like, I don't play a lot of AD champions mid lane. It's just the only ones I do is like 80 carries, essentially that can go middle. Like, I don't play any assassins or anything. So I ended up playing Smolder mid because they had what they have locked into that point. Oh, they had a Lux locked in and hadn't. They're like R5. They hadn't picked an ad carry yet. So, like, okay, all they have left is adc. I'm into Lux. Yeah, I'll play smolder. That'll go fine. They sent the Lux bot and picked Quinn mid. Quinn is a lane bully. Quinn destroys Smolder. I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna take teleport for when I inevitably F up and die at level two, which I did. And then I was like, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna teleport back to lane. Play safe. Every time Quinn is off the map, I'm going to call it out so my teammates can back off in the side lanes and play safe and lose lane gracefully. And that's what our topic is about. How to lose your lane gracefully. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. So that was one of the things that prompted us to have this other topic. Mike, do you want to tell a story of the other thing that prompted us to have this topic? And then we'll explain the actual, like, thought process of what to do to lose your lane gracefully. [00:12:56] Speaker C: Sure. Because this also ties into something that Free said earlier when he was talking about suddenly being a top laner because one of his teammates felt he could beat the other team. Sometimes you in a draft have a flex on you and you're not sure where a champion is going to go. And so you pick with an assumption, and then the enemy does something that absolutely counters you. I was playing Smolder and the enemy picked Irelia. I can't do anything into Irelia. She will get on me and I will die, period. So the absolute first thing we did was we went, hey, can anyone else face Irelia? Because I can't touch this. If I'm in lane with this thing, I will die. And fortunately, Jax was playing Volibear, and that's a pretty good matchup with Volibear. And so we just swapped, knowing that this lane was a dead lane. Get out of it. Don't even play it immediately. Level one, we made it look like we were doing this. They would switch on it, and then we switched immediately. I was in top lane versus an Aurora. Still didn't win the lane, but I lost significantly less than I would have versus Aurelia. [00:14:06] Speaker B: It allowed him to lose the lane gracefully instead of hard losing the lane, basically. And it gave us a winning matchup because if I was playing Volibear into Aurora, I would not have gotten off the ground the way I did into an Irelia, who couldn't fight back if I threw a lightning storm over my head when she engaged on me. [00:14:26] Speaker D: I'd say the big takeaway from matchup. [00:14:28] Speaker B: For Volibear, by the way, the big. [00:14:31] Speaker D: Takeaway from, like, losing Lane gracefully is it's okay to be carried. Like, it's 100% okay for your game to be 4v5 for the first 15, 20 minutes. Yep. Like, you're allowed to have bad games and you're allowed to get beat by someone that drafted better or is better than you. Like, it's okay. You're allowed. [00:14:52] Speaker C: This is going to tie into something that happened to a different game of mine, and this is not planned from anyone else. I was playing with another one of the listeners, Codex, and we had a game with an open nexus for five minutes. We were losing three out of our four areas, two lanes and a jungler, because I was in an even state. If you have one person who can hold you up until the rest of your team is ready, you can play that game out. You just need to hold on. It took 45 minutes, but we won that game. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Yep. And those. Those comebacks where you win a game that feels like it should just be a lost state are so satisfying. I was going to give an example of losing lane gracefully. I currently have a 70% win rate on Malzahar. And some of that is because even in plat, people do not respect the press r of Malzahar and they get killed doing stupid things. But some of that is also that I am deliberately Choosing a champion Malzahar is generally what I play. If I have to blind or I play him into certain other matchups. Like for example, Zed. Because obviously Malzahar with his ult kind of is like notoriously a counter to assassins. A lot of them can still kill him. Like if Zed all ins me, even if I ult him, the moment his ult arrives, there's still half a second that he can unload all of his spells and blow me up. It sucks. I fucking hate dealing with Zed as Malzahar because my CC doesn't quite last long enough to shut down his entire ults. So what you do to lose Lane gracefully is you go, hey, I chose a CC champion. I'm going to get what farm I can. I'm going to play safe and not die because I'm going to be under my turret. And if he tries to dive me under my turret, I always win that because I have CC and I'm going to wait and then there's going to be moments in team fights where he goes to jump on my 80 carry. I had a fed Aphelios in this game. He went. By the way, by the end of the game, this aphelios was 16 and 1. I am not the star of that game. I was never going to be the star of that game. My only job in that game was to press r on whoever tried to kill Aphelios and protect the king. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Had a game like that today with a fed Silas. I was ash. Whenever someone stood near the Silas, I would ult them and Silas would blow them up. That's how we won the game. [00:17:39] Speaker B: Yep. So a lot of losing Lane gracefully is champion dependent. If your champion has no cc, nothing it brings to the table except damage, you often don't get the luxury of looting. Losing Lane gracefully a zed from behind is fucking useless. Like just plain and simple. [00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah, so it is. Yeah, very champion dependent. [00:18:04] Speaker B: That's part of it. But part of it also is picking your battles. I gave up cs. This Zed out farmed me in this Malzahar game that I'm using as my example. He had better CS than I did. He also got more roams than I did. He got some kill participation early off of this. I could not contest him on those, so I didn't. I pinged. And thankfully this was one of the rare games where when I'm pinging caution on my bot Lane frantically, they actually step away. God, it frustrates me so often how many times you can ping caution on them and they'll greed for a cannon and give up a double kill. [00:18:46] Speaker D: Oh, don't worry. That happens. [00:18:49] Speaker A: That happens at fives, too. [00:18:50] Speaker D: Oh, okay. [00:18:51] Speaker A: I'll be screaming like, it happens less often. But, like, I have to make sure. Like, it's. We were looking out for it in that Quinn game because it's Quinn. She roams so fast. But I'll be playing like, hey, this person's missing. They're on a roam. They went, bought back, leave. Now, like, you have to just say it over and over sometimes it's like. And I also realized I'm developing the habit. It's like, oh, this doesn't help in solo queue because I Not pinging it at all because I'm saying voice, whoops. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Yep, That's. That's something I have a hard time with, is when I play in stacks, I'll lose my ping habits and I have to remember to ping again. But, yeah, so for me, a lot of losing Lane gracefully is picking champions with CC to bring to the table. Because, like, another champion that I have a good win rate on is Lissandra. When I'm ahead on Lissandra, I'm just blowing people up. I'm just playing an aggro mage with CC and just detonating people. But when I'm behind, I still bring 4 1/2 seconds of CC to the table or whatever the her CC duration is now. Yeah, you still hold people in place a lot. [00:20:04] Speaker A: It's. [00:20:05] Speaker B: You still have stuff to offer and you just sit back, you drop cs. Dropping CS is the number one part of losing Link Gracefully. Be willing to just be like, I will get experience. I can't get the gold. [00:20:16] Speaker D: Oh, well, I will say it's a lot easier said than done to lose gracefully because a lot of the time you're going to get in your own head. You're going to get ahead of yourself, and you're going to be like, oh, okay, I can TP back to Lane, and he's at half health, and I can just kill him there. Like, you're not strong. You just lost a 1v1. It's just the smart play is to. Don't run past your wave to fight him. Just, you know, you sit back, you farm. Just immediately, as soon as you notice that, like, he's gonna kill you. Like, he does kill you or they kill you, whatever. Just be like, all right, well, time to stop interacting completely. And it's. It's all a mental thing. Like, you can't mental boom. Your first death. [00:21:04] Speaker B: Yep. [00:21:05] Speaker D: Like, way too many times that I'll say probably 90% of the people I get queued with mental boom at the first sign of something going wrong. [00:21:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You get the one person who died at level one gg go next. But that. I think the hardest part of losing Lane gracefully is knowing how far forward you can be safely. Because there's a lot of times where you think, I'm, I'm back. I'm not even close to XP and flash stun dead immediately from nowhere. [00:21:39] Speaker A: It's. [00:21:39] Speaker C: It's really hard to gauge properly where. Where you can safely go. And sometimes the answer is you just can't be there anymore. You see that person, Hey, I. I can't be in the lane with this person anymore. I. I will die if I'm within vision of them. [00:21:57] Speaker A: It's one of the reasons I'm bad at top lane because it's a lot of melee matchups and it's like. It's a lot of what Jack said of like, okay, I just have to give up all the CS and hopefully they don't zone me off of XP as well. Whereas in mid, you at least generally have the hope of like, I can get like two melees and maybe the cannon with like a ranged ability and then just back all the way up. [00:22:19] Speaker B: The difference there is mid is a short lane. Even if they freeze on you, it's hard for them to freeze on you and have the lane be far enough away from your turret for you to be out of experience range while still in a safe position. Position. [00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:32] Speaker B: Whereas top and bot lane, if you get the wave in a bad position, they can freeze on you. And it's hard to even be in experience range because if you step out of your turret, they'll kill you. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And like a bot lane, you at least have like two people to like, throw abilities. Try and like break something. It can be a little easier. Top lane, I feel like, is the most unforgiving when it comes to that. [00:22:55] Speaker B: When you're playing like vain Alistair, you're just fucked if they haven't. [00:22:58] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, it true. [00:23:02] Speaker C: Unless the Alistair has no idea how to use Q. Oh, no, we're not. [00:23:07] Speaker B: We're not going there. I was gonna say this is something specific to bot lane. Don't tantrum if your support starts taking CS to force a freeze break. When you're playing with like a Lux or a Morgana or a Brand or something like that, one of the mage supports, you can actually like nuke minions from far away. If the enemy's got a freeze and you're being zoned. Their job is now to throw spells to break that freeze because that's the only way it's going to get broken. [00:23:37] Speaker A: I agree. Tangent that this just triggered me on. If you're one of those mage supports, you are get to mid lane and you're. Anyone else. Actually, I was going to say ad carry, but anyone else is like walking to that wave. Don't wipe the wave. Let them get it, please. [00:23:58] Speaker B: Just last hit. [00:24:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:03] Speaker B: Even for supports, lasting hitting is an important skill. [00:24:07] Speaker A: Yes. Sorry, that. [00:24:10] Speaker B: Yeah, no, the totally valid as a mid laner. Yeah. It's super frustrating when the mage support thinks he's the fucking star and steals my shit and then points at the damage charts at the end to like, demonstrate how much better he is that everyone else. And it's like, buddy, you stole farm and experience from three different lanes and deliberately held spells to snipe kills. Of course you look good on the score charts. That doesn't mean you were actually the most helpful. [00:24:39] Speaker A: I will say one other thing with losing lane gracefully. And it's something I've had to get better at because, like, I, you know, swapped roles to mid and it's. I don't know, matchups super well. So sometimes like. Oh, that kills me. Huh. Neat. That happens a lot. [00:24:54] Speaker B: Yep. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Sometimes it's valid to alter your build because of matchups going poorly. To give an extreme example, because it's. I was playing vegar yesterday. I. Instead of just like going a normal build with like Rod of Ages into the Archangels to like. Oh yeah, that kind of normal tanky, I was like, I'm gonna be like, so delayed on getting the rod because I got like, already pushed out early. So I went fimble winter first item. [00:25:30] Speaker B: Okay, you're. You're gonna like this. I have played vegar games where I went Rod of Ages, Frozen heart Archangels. [00:25:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:40] Speaker B: Just to be able to survive the Zed or whoever I got counterpicked with or the Aurelia because I'm Veigar and no matter what happens, I will have stun cage. That is an incredible teamfight Stun. And I will stack hundreds of AP off my passive and I will be a damage threat no matter what I build. I have played full tank veigar before. Like, literally did not build a damage item. Just had like 400 AP for my passive and 4000 life and 200 of each resist. [00:26:08] Speaker A: That's how I play him in a ram same. [00:26:10] Speaker B: It's shockingly effective. [00:26:13] Speaker A: But like, even to like, give let to like, more general examples like if you're a tier champion and you're getting set behind early, finishing serifs first is valid because then all of a sudden you get this big ass shield. Like. Yeah, you're not going to be doing as much damage as if you finish the Blackfire or the Malignants or whatever first. But like you can still build those items second and just have that safety against like, especially if you're against some kind of assassin. Like, I've won games because I got a shutdown from finishing my serifs. They try and dive me and I live and they die to tower because of the seraph shield. [00:26:49] Speaker B: Yep. That that's where I was gonna go next is adjusting your build to a defensive item early can often cause them to make mistakes because they won't realize it. I'm sure pillow pets experienced the early Sterak and then they turret dive in top lane and it doesn't work because there's a sterak shield for 500 extra health. [00:27:08] Speaker D: Oh yeah. I mean any kind of like item that's gonna give you those defensive stacks, they are all of a sudden they're like, oh, I cannot burst this guy anymore. So they. Yeah, it's such an easy mistake and not understanding what an item does the proc times how much it is and being able to deal with it. Like my favorite thing. I mean, if I'm losing Lane and I immediately recognize that before I die, like my first buy is always going to be plated steel caps if that's the option. Because all of a sudden I'm not getting poked out of lane anymore. [00:27:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:45] Speaker B: Bear in mind, this is partially because he plays in top lane where most of the damage is going to be physical. [00:27:50] Speaker D: I mean, even, like, even I'll swap it around. Even if I get Merc shoes now, all of a sudden I'm not taking as much magic damage and I can stay in lane longer. [00:28:00] Speaker B: There's also the extra side part that people don't think about of you're getting boots too, so you have more move speed. It's easier for you to dodge skill shots. It's easier for you to run away if they try to fight you because you move faster. [00:28:13] Speaker D: Oh yeah. [00:28:14] Speaker C: Movement speed is the most important stat in the game that no one talks about. [00:28:18] Speaker B: Yep. [00:28:19] Speaker D: I mean I always, I always preach on it. Like movement speed number one stat, in my opinion. Like, I played a game last night with Jax where I went teemo. I have no idea why they recommend Q max second. Because to me, W is just the way to go. Like, I put an extra point in W like level four or something. I just go ahead and put two and E and two and W or however level five. And just because the movement speed is just so dang good. Nothing's more infuriating than a Teemo running back and forth, dodging all your stuff and autoing you out of lane. [00:28:58] Speaker B: So I will point out for Teemo for listeners, don't just listen to Pillow Pet and blindly be like, oh, I should just do Move quick second. Recommended is wrong. The blind increases its duration as you rank it up and that's the reason it's usually the second choice that is correct. But if the enemy's not auto attacking you, then the blind doesn't do anything and you should be maxing Move quick second. [00:29:20] Speaker D: It's just my personal preference when I'm playing Teemo. Like I go off of the recommended that like off. Every website's going to tell you because it's my preference because I like to move fast and it just gives me better reaction timing because I got old man hands. So if my character moves a little faster and gives me a little one up, that's where I'm gonna go. [00:29:40] Speaker B: But again, like against mages, you should actually be maxing Move quick second. You are correct in those matchups, it's just against auto attackers. You do want the extra blind duration. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Usually if you're Max the blind. [00:29:54] Speaker D: I was going against the Camille last night and I still didn't even max my Q second. [00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what's wild to me. [00:30:00] Speaker D: Like I. I went with it because her biggest thing is her W for her sustain. Yeah, her W for sustain. And I did not want to get hit with it. So I just went with Move fast stay away. [00:30:18] Speaker B: To be fair though, you got away with it because that Camille was terrible. [00:30:22] Speaker D: Yeah, true. [00:30:23] Speaker B: I think if she was good, you would have punished more guys. Got any other thoughts about losing Lane gracefully? [00:30:29] Speaker A: I guess the last thing on the itemization thing unfortunately can't really do that as AD carry. You're kind of just. [00:30:36] Speaker B: You. You can. It just is very frustrating because it delays your relevance for so much. Yeah, Bow second is really good. If you're just like hard, you need an extra 300 health to survive to be able to get your CS. [00:30:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I would only. [00:30:54] Speaker C: You're committing to playing a 35 minute game. 40 minutes. [00:30:57] Speaker A: Yeah, like. And I would only do that if it's like okay, I like am down in lane and they have a fed assassin from somewhere else like who can burst me. [00:31:07] Speaker B: I was going to Say I have on Kaisa skipped Nasher's third and Gonzonia's third because the enemy had a Z. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Totally out. [00:31:17] Speaker B: So there are times even for ad carries, but it's much more niche and limited. All right, we have a trinket tip. You'll notice a theme this week of things we've experienced in our games recently. We're sharing thoughts with you guys. Our trinket tip this time is. Just because you got beat with it does not mean it's OP and you shouldn't pick it up and play it if you don't understand the workings of it. Not just the champion. Now this comes from. We played a game where our top. Our top laner got no. Their top laner destroyed. Their top laner got destroyed by a R. Warwick Top. And then we got that same guy who had just gotten destroyed and he played Warwick Top and he got destroyed. [00:32:11] Speaker D: You know what that reminds me of is that on Tick Tock I see these videos occasionally that come around and it's always like this guy going against one dude and he does some like flashy play and it'll immediately go to like a champion select screen. He plays. That guy gets beat by another dude doing a flashy plate. It just recycles all the way around different champions. So it comes back to his original champion of him getting beat and some recycle or some fantastic play. It's always funny. [00:32:39] Speaker C: That's pretty much it. If you don't know what to do with the champion, it doesn't mean that it's op. It just means you had no idea how to deal with it. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Yep. [00:32:50] Speaker C: And often, unless it's Akali, then it's op. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Yeah, we've ranted enough about her. [00:32:57] Speaker D: I will say on a side note of that, if you're interested now in learning why that champion beat you, go learn that champion. That gives you something to do. And then, yes, then you get. Then you get the advantage. [00:33:07] Speaker C: But we say this. Just don't do it in a ranked game. We went from ranked game to ranked game and immediately we had the person who just lost. Don't do that. If you got beat so bad, you go, damn, I need to figure out how that was done. Go to a normal game immediately. Try it. [00:33:24] Speaker A: Oh, we had this happen too. We played against the Tank Shaco and admittedly it only worked because we had like we were a mono damage type team so like we couldn't really deal with them that well because our mono damage was magic damage. But then the next game our jungler played Tank Shaco and I mean, we won the game. It took 55 minutes. Yeah, yeah. You won't against Vigor and Nasus take the game to 55 minutes because apparently you win. [00:34:01] Speaker D: That shouldn't work playing a Tank Shock O game after this. [00:34:07] Speaker B: But it's not what the takeaway is supposed to mean here. All right, let's answer some listener questions. All right, our first question, the name they gave us on the email is Dotafan. So Dotafan writes, hi guys, I'm a longtime Dota player, but I got into League thanks to your podcast. Why is there no variable turn speed for champions in League of Legends? Given that some champions have mechanics that depend on their facing direction, like Cassiopeia's Ultimate Stun, Tryndamere's Chicken thing, and Shaco's Backstab bonus, it's surprising there's no turn speed feature in place. The lack of turn speed allows players to waddle or sidestep unpredictably, making skillshots much harder to lands. Wouldn't adding a turn speed mechanic make these champion interactions more intentional and skillful? How would the game change if there was turn speed? Which champions would get better or worse if there was turn speed in the game? Lastly, which champions would have faster or slower turn speeds? So he votes Gragas. I want to explain turn speed because I'm assuming I'm the only person here who's actually played Dota. [00:35:11] Speaker A: I've played it. Turn speed is the reason I stopped playing it. [00:35:14] Speaker B: Okay, so you guys have played Dota, so let's explain for the listeners first what turn speed in Dota is, because I think that's gonna be required for the rest of the discussion to make any sense. [00:35:25] Speaker C: The simplest term is if you click forward and then click right, you're not going to immediately turn to the direction and go. You're going to have a travel distance where you're going to slowly change directions as you hit there. It's not always slow. Sometimes it's fast. [00:35:42] Speaker B: Yep. Basically in League of Legends, if you click behind your character to move, you will instantly start moving backwards. In Dota, your character will start turning like they are a car and like turning, turn around and then start running. It's. It's not instant. And this is by design because Dota comes from Warcraft 3, which has this by design because Dota was a mod for Warcraft 3 originally. And in Warcraft 3, turn speed is part of how the RTS is balanced. [00:36:16] Speaker C: If you've played Nunu Scion or used the New Rift Herald. That is turn speed. [00:36:23] Speaker B: That is an exaggerated version of it, but yes. [00:36:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:28] Speaker B: And what this creates in a game like Dota is they're able to do a lot of fun stuff with directional mechanics. For example, Bristleback, if you hit him in the back, deals damage to everyone behind him. I believe there's a lot of fun stuff that can be done with turn speed where people can't just dance around you. Some of the crazy plays you've seen in Pro couldn't exist if there was turn speed. But the biggest reason there is not a turn speed mechanic in League of Legends is the way that it balances melee versus ranged. It was a deliberate decision by Guinsoo, by the other people who worked on League in its like alpha and beta stages. Yes. Guinsoo, one of the developers of the Dota mod, worked on League of Legends when it was new. That's why we have Guinsoo's Rageblade. It's named after the creator of Dota All Stars. For those who didn't know that. So they intentionally did not carry over the turn speed mechanic because doing. If turn speed existed, melee champions as a whole would have to be a lot weaker to compensate. Right now in League of Legends, melee champions are incredibly strong compared to their ranged counterparts in very basic ways. Because the ranged champions can turn around instantly and run away, they can kite them. Champions like Ash can just shoot slows at you while running away. And so the melee champions have to be strong to compensate for that. In Dota, you know what the melee champions get to make them viable? A stun on basic attacks, incredible amounts of tankiness, all sorts of crazy steroids, a forced 1v1 until one of the two parties dies. That is a thing in Dota, by the way. [00:38:40] Speaker A: So the winner gets permanent sessions. Okay. [00:38:46] Speaker B: Blink Dagger exists in Dota, which is like flash on a. I think 15 second cooldown or something. But it has a three second cooldown anytime you take damage. So you can't use it if you've taken damage in the last three seconds. So there's. There's a lot of things in Dota that exist within the context of Dota to try to help overcome this inherent melee are stronger in a game with turn speed because the ranged can't kite as easily. That's why, like, it's just a different game. It fundamentally feels different to play. [00:39:25] Speaker A: So I think also the three champions you mentioned, I believe they're the only champions that have direction opponent Champion is facing effects. I just kind of skim through the List of champions. There's obviously a lot that are like the direction your champion is facing matters. But I think those are the only three that the direction the enemy champion is facing matters. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Yep. [00:39:48] Speaker A: And the newest of those is Cassiopeia. Was released in 2010. [00:39:55] Speaker B: Yep. [00:39:56] Speaker A: They pretty intentionally don't use those mechanics anymore. [00:40:01] Speaker C: And obviously the champion with the fastest turn speed would be Garen because he spins. [00:40:07] Speaker B: True. [00:40:08] Speaker D: I don't have a whole lot to add to this because I never played a whole lot of Dota. But. So what you're saying to make sure I understand. Melee champions and Dota are given more engage tools. Correct. To be able to counteract the turn speed. [00:40:23] Speaker B: Other way around there. They don't need as many tools. You would never see something like Yasuo in Dota. He couldn't exist because he would take over all of Dota. Being able to just dash through every minion at will with bit like a half second cooldown. [00:40:43] Speaker D: Okay. [00:40:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And hiding is a lot harder in Dota. [00:40:47] Speaker B: Kiting so much more difficult in Dota. [00:40:50] Speaker D: Because I was getting ready to say like in the direction at every new champion now in league having 800 dashes is going like. I feel like that wouldn't be like the worst thing almost. [00:41:01] Speaker B: Yep. And that is part of it is the part of the side effect of not having a turn speed is we do have a lot more champions with dashes. Because champions need dashes to be able to engage on champions. You'll notice most champions with dashes are melee. There are dashes on range champions. It's a lot smaller percentage of the total cast. And usually they are longer cooldowns. That's intentional. That's a way that League chose to balance the game. [00:41:32] Speaker C: There are two other champions I can think of that have facing as an inherent portion of their their kit. Braum with his shield. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Yep. [00:41:41] Speaker C: And Fiora. [00:41:44] Speaker B: Yep. Both of which are not so much character facing as ability direction. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:51] Speaker B: Braum casts the shield in whatever direction he wants and that's the direction it stays. [00:41:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:56] Speaker B: And Fiora. [00:41:57] Speaker C: His cardinal directions. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Cardinal directions. [00:42:00] Speaker A: But Brah. But you. Brahm is a good call. Because it does matter relationally which way the enemy is to you. [00:42:08] Speaker B: And more importantly also, Braum does enable Tryndamere, Shaco and Cassiopeia to either guarantee or be unable to trigger their facing effects. Because he can't turn around while that skill is active. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Yep. [00:42:22] Speaker C: And you can completely stop a Fiora ability by hugging a wall. [00:42:27] Speaker B: Yep. So the other thing I was gonna say as far as turn speed goes Rammus would have the highest turn speed. Not Garen, but for similar reasons. [00:42:39] Speaker C: Gotta go fast. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Sonic the lowest because he already feels like he has turn speed would be a rally. And soul. Holy shit. That dragon feels like he's a tank. When you're like like yeah, yeah. [00:42:54] Speaker C: Simon would just have his actual alt turn speed. Just dun dun dun dun. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Oh God no. For regular movement. That would be the worst thing ever. [00:43:03] Speaker A: I'm not convinced it's possible to dodge skill shots as a rally in soul. He's so fucking fat. [00:43:08] Speaker C: It's very hard. [00:43:10] Speaker B: But yeah. Long answer short. The biggest reason is just that it's a different game and it's balanced differently because there is no turn speed. Turn speed would make like if you just added turn speed as is. The melee cast of League of Legends would be the only ones you see play ever again. [00:43:29] Speaker A: AD Carries would be unplayable. [00:43:32] Speaker B: Yep, AD Carries would be unplayable. Melee and League are overpowered by design because there is no turn speed. [00:43:38] Speaker C: And Pantheon forgot about his shield. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Oh yeah, Pantheon. [00:43:42] Speaker B: I forgot directional ability. Yes. Similar to Braum. All right, let's get some more questions. These come from Reigns who recently joined the Discord and then threw us a whole bunch. Dear Wards, coming back to hit you with more questions as Worlds rounds out, my interest in League is coming to an all time high. Especially now that I have found Garen and realize that my current two mains, Garen and Wukong, are a triple flex in top side. With this realization comes a few questions. Do you find that putting Jungle in secondary reduces your queue times? [00:44:13] Speaker A: Yes, as long as you don't mind playing Jungle all the time. [00:44:18] Speaker B: No, I got much shorter Qs when I put AD Carry secondary. But I played AD Carry every single game. [00:44:24] Speaker C: Yeah, if there. There are usually two roles at a time that are considered priority roles. Like they have much less people than everyone else. At the current time, it's Jungle and AD Carry for a long time. [00:44:36] Speaker A: It's support. It was AD Carry for a long time, but it's Jungle and support again. Some of the itemization changes recently made AD Carry more popular again. [00:44:49] Speaker C: So once. Once. If you do one of those, you're. You're gonna find shorter queue times. So as you're playing jungle. Yep. Shorter queue. [00:44:57] Speaker A: And if you play mid, you will always have the longest Q. Mid is always the most popular role. [00:45:02] Speaker B: It's true. [00:45:04] Speaker A: Which also means if you play any other role and you put mid secondary, you're gonna get your primary 90% of the time. It's more likely to get surprising when. [00:45:13] Speaker B: You get mid secondary, it does happen, but it's as surprising as getting auto filled. [00:45:18] Speaker A: I think it's honestly less common than getting autofilled. [00:45:23] Speaker B: I don't know. From my sample size of. When I played ad carry for a while as a primary and mid secondary, it was about the same as autofill, which is still. You don't get autofilled much anymore. So. [00:45:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I've noticed that. [00:45:36] Speaker B: All right, so he comes to further questions. Not specific to these champions, but fair enough if they are a specific example. Do runes change for Jungle compared to Laning? [00:45:46] Speaker A: Usually can. Yeah. [00:45:49] Speaker B: There are various. [00:45:51] Speaker C: There are specific Laning runes. Grasp is pretty much one of them. [00:45:56] Speaker B: Yep. Fleet Footwork. Same idea. Like those are lane specific. They don't offer anything in the jungle either because they literally cannot proc in the jungle like grasp. Or they give something you don't need in the jungle like fleet footwork. What the hell does that offer you in the jungle? You're healthy anyway because the jungle item gives you so much healing. [00:46:14] Speaker A: And then there's Skarner who still just goes grasp in the jungle anyway. And Heart Steal. Because it's a greedy scorpion that just wants more health. [00:46:22] Speaker B: I still think that's wrong. I know he does, but I think it's wrong. I feel like Aftershock or something will give you more actual value. [00:46:28] Speaker C: Greedy greedy scorpion. [00:46:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So those are. Those are big examples even in secondary runes though. Like Absorb. Life is useless in the jungle. Don't bother taking it like. It's just bad. [00:46:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:45] Speaker B: Manaflowband is really hard to stack as a jungler because you don't have a lane opponent. So it's usually not a good choice on a jungle. Even if you're playing a mage. Like when I play Morgana Jungle. I'm still not taking Manaflow Band. [00:46:59] Speaker A: Late footwork generally not recommended for junglers because you typically want to buy your boots before like the 11 minute mark. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna hard disagree on that one for two reasons. One, so it's not fleet footwork. It's whatever free ass boots is. [00:47:15] Speaker A: Sorry. Yes. Free ass boots. [00:47:17] Speaker B: I was but one other feast. Junglers are more economy bound than other roles. They don't farm as much gold as a solo laner or an ad carry does. So the value of getting your boots for free can also mean getting to your item spike in time to be able to contest a laner on an objective fair. The other is, yes, the boots delay sucks, but that 10 extra move speed after it pops is incredible. So just incentivize Getting some early bot lane ganks and getting that timer down because you got some kills or assists. [00:47:52] Speaker A: It depends. It's champion dependent too. For sure. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I. I think it's one where there isn't a right or wrong answer there. Like that rune is fine in the jungle. I was going to say there's a couple runes that come to mind as being almost like jungle specific. Like only take them if you're in the jungle. The first one that comes to my mind is the one that gives you increased health for monster kills in the Green Tree. I forget what it's called. I don't see that on anyone but junglers. [00:48:25] Speaker A: That's a rune. [00:48:27] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like the bottom left of the green Minor runes. [00:48:32] Speaker C: Predator used to be before it was destroyed and taken away. Predator pretty much was a jungle rune. Only talk about there were a couple of other people who used it, but almost no one. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Overgrowth. That's what it's called. [00:48:43] Speaker A: Oh yeah. It stacks on minions too. [00:48:45] Speaker B: It does, but not as fast. A full wave doesn't get you the eight you need. Whereas two camps does. [00:48:54] Speaker A: Fair. I like this on laners. [00:48:58] Speaker B: Fair enough. It's also kind of the other runes give more value to Lane. Whereas in jungle it's the only one of those runes that's usually useful. Which I think is the other part of it. There's a few other runes that are more lane or more jungle specific. The one that gives you move speed in the river. Extremely valuable on junglers. Situational on everyone else. [00:49:26] Speaker A: Yep. [00:49:27] Speaker B: I don't remember what it's called. Water walking. [00:49:29] Speaker A: Water walking. [00:49:30] Speaker D: Water walking, yeah. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Like actually just God tier rune. On Junglers. [00:49:37] Speaker A: You also get bonus ad and AP in the river. [00:49:40] Speaker B: Yes. [00:49:42] Speaker C: Where you fight most of the time. [00:49:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And then some of them are also just going to be champion specific runes. Like if you're playing Hecarim, you're probably taking Celerity. If you're in that tree, doesn't matter whether you're taking him in the lane or the jungle. You're just taking the rune your champion needs. [00:50:03] Speaker A: Yep. [00:50:05] Speaker B: Okay. [00:50:07] Speaker A: Question three. That's the other one that's not usual. [00:50:09] Speaker B: And Jungler scorches usually laner specific. Yes. So unfortunately there's a lot more laner specific than there are jungle specific ones. But it is what it is. Question 3. How would I learn optimal pathing for my champion in the jungle? [00:50:30] Speaker A: YouTube. [00:50:31] Speaker C: Google YouTube. [00:50:32] Speaker D: That's YouTube. [00:50:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:35] Speaker B: Yep. [00:50:36] Speaker C: Find and practice tool. Practice tool. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Yes. So there will be a guide on YouTube of someone who is like masters plus showing you on your chosen champion how to do the clear. Hopefully it was recorded fairly recently. Because sometimes those guides are getting a little old and may or may not still be correct. [00:50:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Add the patch number to your search. Like current patch number. And then find the video that's the closest to that. [00:51:03] Speaker B: Yes. So you usually if it's a patch or two out. Unless there were major changes on your champion in that patch, It'll be fine for your first couple clears regardless. [00:51:11] Speaker C: Yeah. And then practice tool is your friend here. You can just go through do the camps again and again and again. Reset again and again. You're going to want to start your first one over and over and over. [00:51:23] Speaker B: Yep. And to give you an idea of how much of a difference this can make on a Just nothing happens. I'm just clearing my camps. I can consistently clear all six of my camps on volibear and be at the scuttle crab when it spawns, Only using one of my smites. So I still have a smite for the scuttle crab. When I've played with other people who are less practiced on volibear's clears, they have to use both smites. And they're only clearing five camps by the time the scuttle crab spawns. I would say difference of a whole camp and they've burned a second smite. [00:51:58] Speaker D: I would say it's definitely always best practice too. To make sure you always save an extra smite Unless you have the clear. Like I would say the only time you don't want to keep a smite or you don't have to Is unless you know for a fact that you guys started like opposite. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Yep. [00:52:14] Speaker D: Quadrants. So that gives you. [00:52:15] Speaker B: If you know that you will not meet up with the enemy jungler on the. On the scuttle. [00:52:20] Speaker D: Like, that would be the only time that I could think you don't have to save your smite. But it's always best practice to save that smite. Because you can take a scuttle crab in like a second and a half. [00:52:33] Speaker B: Yep. I. I've definitely had games where the enemy jungler just gank spot at like level two. And I'm like, okay, I'm burning my smite to make sure I am there by 330. Because I'll be level four and he won't be. So if even if he comes in and smites it, I'll kill his ass with the level difference. So I still come out ahead. [00:52:52] Speaker A: That's what now that's when I just walk in and take their top Buff and use my smite on that often? [00:52:59] Speaker B: Yes. God, that fucking Amumu game where I stole the grave's entire bot side. Because of the invade he did, he. [00:53:09] Speaker D: Was not allowed to exist after like 17 minutes. I don't think he was able to go in any of his jungle quadrants for the rest of the game. [00:53:18] Speaker B: Yep. [00:53:19] Speaker A: I will say in terms of just like optimal pathing for your first clear. At least most champions are doing a full clear at this point. [00:53:28] Speaker B: I'd say like a full clear or a very early gank and they don't give a about their clear. It's one of the two. Basically every viable jungler should be able to clear six camps. And yet the scuttle at 330. Hopefully with their second smite still intact. Although that part does vary more from champion to champion. Some will not make it at 3:30 if they use their second smite unless they got a really good leash. And then the ones that just their clear socks are incredible gangers. These are going to be like Jarvan, his clear is not good but oh my God his ganks. [00:54:14] Speaker A: Yup. [00:54:17] Speaker B: But yeah that's really it for how to learn optimal pathing is just look at high levels, how they do the clears and then practice it until you can do the same things and pay attention to the little details like how they move after an auto attack while they're waiting on the cooldown on their auto attack. That's a big part of it. Alright, let's get one more question before we wrap up here. This one comes from Codexninja who writes hi Wards. I know this is probably going to be per champion but how would you go figuring out optimal component build order for your first item? This came up when I was trying to figure out the optimal build path for Kraken Slayer for Ash. If I come back with 1200 gold for sure I want heartbound axe. But if I come back with 800 what do I buy? [00:55:06] Speaker A: So here's what I do and maybe this isn't a smart thing but this is what I tend to do. If there is like a component that is like pickaxe is the example because nothing builds into pickaxe. It's just like you takes 875. If I have 1200 and like the item takes pickaxe and then it has something that's like heartbound ax that has like daggers and long swords. I'll buy the pickaxe and one of the small components instead of the full thing. Because I mean I. My mindset is if I Walk right back to lane and like die in a wave. I might be able to afford another component. I won't be able to afford the pickaxe. [00:55:50] Speaker B: Yep. I'll give a slightly different item example that I think will accentuate this more. Let's say you are a champion that first items collector. If you have a thousand gold, you should just buy the serrated dirk. It gives you the most value for a single slot. But if you have enough gold to buy a pickaxe and a long sword, sometimes that can be a better buy than serrated dirk. Are you going to be playing aggro or are you just farming? Because if you're just farming, the extra ad will make more of a difference. But you know what you should never buy first? Cloak of agility. Because crit is a multiplicative stat. The more of it you have, the more valuable it becomes. So that cloak of agility as your first part of your collector is fucking useless. It doesn't do anything most of the time. It's just not a strong use of your gold compared to just the raw ad. Now using that same example, what about your third item? You've got your collector, you've got your infinity edge. Now you're building the rapid fire cannon because you're playing Caitlyn. The first part of that you buy is the cloak of agility because now you have the crit to back it up. You have the infinity edge to make the crit worth more. It is now the most valuable component in the next item. [00:57:05] Speaker A: Yep. [00:57:06] Speaker B: Generally I wanted to highlight that because that's a. Like the. The value changes depending on the state of your current build. [00:57:15] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:57:16] Speaker C: If you're talking about as your first item in general form, almost every champion, it's going to be what can I afford that gives me the most damage out of that piece? Because damage is almost always the most important stat for every champion. Unless you're going with a tanky build in which case it's wood can give me the most defensive stats. Usually health. Almost always health. [00:57:41] Speaker A: I will say there are times when I'll use mid as the example. Say I back with a thousand gold so I can't afford my blanking on the item. Name Chapter. Lost chapter. Thank you. I can't afford my lost chapter. A lot of times I'll opt for like I always get the amp tone and then instead of the ruby crystal, sometimes I'll just grab my boots. Then just to like again move speed. I think a little bit underrated and like sorcs are a big spike Anyway, so having the boots already helps for later. So like sometimes that I'd say like the three. Go ahead. [00:58:23] Speaker B: I was gonna say I've also had games where I'm going like a Luden's companion first where I'm like cool, I have 1100 gold. Let's just buy the Hextech alternator. I'm choosing that I am going to have mana problems, but I can kill my opponent and that's the the conscious decision I've made. And if they play really safe and don't give me any opportunities to harass them, I have made the wrong choice. I am gambling that they will do something stupid and let me bully them. [00:58:58] Speaker A: I'd say like the components of if you can afford this, just buy it no matter what. Like what else builds are obviously BF Sword and needlessly large rod. Like if you're building an item that uses one of those like as your next item. Obviously if it's like you're back with 1300 but your first items collector don't buy the bf sword for your Infinity Edge, that's not gonna help. But if your next item could use one of those, buy it. Lost Chapter Most of the time is going to be the correct choice. Like Jack said, sometimes it's not, but I would say most of the time it is. And never buy a Scout Sling Shot. [00:59:36] Speaker B: It's. It's not as bad as it was. It's now only 100 gold premium over the daggers themselves. And you do get a neat proc. I'm not going to say it's ever correct, but it's a lot less wrong than it used to be. [00:59:53] Speaker A: If the choice is upgrading to a Scout Slingshot but not having enough gold for a control ward, I will buy a control ward. Granted, I buy too many control wards, but that notwithstanding, I. I will often. [01:00:08] Speaker B: Pick Scout Slingshot if I'm playing someone who is poke heavy. Like if I'm playing let's say Kaisa where her W is a good poke tool and they are playing champions where I can actually get W pokes. I'm building a static shiv. I will go like Pickaxe first, but then I might go the Scout Slingshot instead of the Rex if that's just where the gold lands when I get a back in. [01:00:35] Speaker A: Ah, but Rektrix gives move speed the most important stat. [01:00:40] Speaker B: But if I have a choice between a long sword and a dagger or Scout Slingshot, I'm gonna take the Scout Slingshot. [01:00:48] Speaker D: That's fair because the actual choice can be my bypass. Usually If I'm going back with 800 gold my usually my build of choice is going to be my boot components and a refillable. That's usually where I go with it. And that's just a top lane perspective. Especially like if you're on like state plated steel caps. I usually just go the 600 gold route, get the refillable and then that's where I can spend most of my gold. And I'm getting useful stats out of it and it gives me a little bit more sustain in lane. But as far as an ADC standpoint I can't really give a good opinion except like when I just play down there I usually just buy the whatever components spend the most gold so I'm not left with like an awkward amount of gold because if to me it feels bad when like I'm left over with like 250 gold but now there's opponents components that you can buy for 250. So I don't know. I haven't played a whole lot of ADC since the new component pricing. [01:01:54] Speaker A: I have been liking call more recently like if I back with 450 like our 500 getting that instead of getting a long sword like I've been. I've been gravitating back towards that. I don't know why it keeps happening to me on Corki of like I take a bunch of early trades and we both back early and like oh I have like 500, 600 gold. I'm going to grab coal or in like coal or like cold dagger or something. I don't know. Or coal boots. [01:02:20] Speaker D: Yeah, coal is just a good item. Like I mean it's just, it's just a. It's an investment item and as long as you're getting your CS and you're not waiting 15 minutes into your game to finally buy your coal and you get it early enough it's always going to be. It's always going to pay off. [01:02:37] Speaker B: I have definitely had games where I'm like this is clearly a long haul game and I bought coal in the 10 to 15 minute mark. But this is usually not preferable. [01:02:48] Speaker C: But of course if you don't want to have to think about item components you can just take Lucian in the top lane. You'll get as many kills as you want and just buy full items. [01:02:56] Speaker B: There you go. The only time you have to back is when you want to buy a completed legendary item. Alright guys. This has been episode 454 of the Forwards podcast. I've been Jack Sillman for Free Shooter, for Mic of many Names and for Pillow Pet. Have a great night. [01:03:15] Speaker D: Good night. [01:03:16] Speaker C: See you around. [01:03:19] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the four Wards Podcast. If you liked what you heard and you want to support the podcast, head on over to patreon.com the forwardspodcast to give us some support. We appreciate you and of course listeners. Please don't forget to write your questions into the forwardspodcastmail.com so we can answer them on the show.