[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Four Wards Podcast.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Hey, what's up? It's Eric Bra, voice of Draven Jerks and Velkoz. And you're listening to the Four Wards Podcast here to help you move forward in league.
Hello and welcome to episode 472 of the Four Wards podcast. I'm your host as usual. I'm Jack Soman and I've got two other wards with me today to help you move forward in League of Legends. We've got Pillow Pet.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: Hello there.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: And we've got Mike of many names.
[00:00:55] Speaker C: I'm here forever.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, we appreciate that. By the way, guys, we are the Four Wards Podcast. We have a Discord. Come join the Discord. Come to hang out, chat. It's a great time. We got all sorts of channels. Talk about whatever strikes your fancy. New anime coming out. We got a channel for that. Want to talk about Warhammer or other like Tabletop Games? We got a general games channel. Go chat about it. There's want to just vent about the idiots you encounter in Soloq? We got a channel for that too. Come join the Discord link is in the episode description. We look forward to seeing you there.
Some of us do stream on Twitch. I can be found at Twitch TV jacksoman where mostly I've been streaming. Super Metroid Mike can be found@twitch tv mikeofmanynames. What are you streaming lately?
[00:01:48] Speaker C: I think I'll probably start streaming again soon. Now that it feels like I've gotten most of that gunk conquered. I haven't been doing major coughing anymore. That's probably into Monster Hunter. Maybe some wow streaming Monster Hunter and wow.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: What about you? Pillow Pet. Twitch TV Pillow Pet.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: When I do plan on having a streams coming up, I want to start streaming some Shadows of Doubt. I'm pretty excited to do that nice little relaxing cozy dame. It's a like detective game that puts you in like a procedurally generated like map with all like the same buildings just random. And you just climb the ranks of the social ladder from the bottom to the top and it's pretty fun. You just go around, solve murders and do jobs for other people.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: That sounds dope.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: All right.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: And I'm gonna plug it even though he's not here. Twitch TV free eShooter. That's right. There are three E's and free. He has been on that Elden Ring stream kick doing different like challenge bounties that people set up. Go give him a view. Help him get to affiliate. He's like so close.
[00:02:58] Speaker C: Gotta give that shout out for him. Because he. He took first in the last one of the challenges. He did. He kicked ass.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Dude is good at Elden Ring.
It's. It's pretty great. So go give him a watch.
All right. Shout out to Codex, Ninja Pillow Pet and Robegon. You guys support us at the shoutout tier. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. We could not do this without you.
Now if you want to support us, head over to patreon.com theforwardspodcast $1 a month just tells us that you love us. $5 a month gets you an exclusive feed of some behind the scenes audio of our prep work before each show. And $10 a month will get you that feed and the shout out at the top of the episode.
Last but not least. Alright listeners. It's disappointed dad, Jax again. None of you wrote in any questions. We're out of questions.
We need you guys to open up the email app on your phone or open up your email on your computer. Whatever is most convenient for you.
Send an email to theforwardspodcastmail.com and ask us shit so we can answer your questions on the show. Ask us about champion matchups or how to build someone or whatever else tickles your fancy. We got no questions. We can't have the Q and A segment of the episode without questions. Guys.
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Alright with that, our topic for tonight, our main topic is patch 25.05. It's patch week.
Yay. Patch week. Yay.
This is actually a really small patch guys. We're gonna kick it off. I'm gonna throw it over to Pillow Pet to talk about something that should not affect any of us in a meaningful way but is a long time coming and fucking necessary.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So what Jax is talking about is the lane swap detection that is being introduced or got introduced a few days ago from this recording.
So from minute 30 to three minutes and 30 seconds into the game, if someone other than the jungle enters top in mid lane, you are going to get penalized mainly when you're trying to go under the enemy tower.
So just to briefly go over this, the turrets will have 95% damage reduction. They will deal extra damage to minions by a thousand percent damage to extra minions and to enemy champions.
Any gold earned that would have been earned from those minions dying automatically goes to the affected player that's solo in that lane and being dove under his tower or attempted to gets that gold automatically whether he last hits it or not.
See, let's see if I'm missing any more hot points here. You get 50% less gold and experience for minions and that lingers for 20 seconds in the top lane and six seconds in the mid lane.
Yeah. So basically, don't go into. If you're a support, don't go into top lane and don't roam to the mid lane before 3 minutes and 30 seconds or you are going to hurt your laner and you will be one shot by a tower.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:06:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: The.
[00:06:48] Speaker C: The two things that are really important about this for. For you as a. As a player and in your elo is as a support, don't go roaming. As a mid laner, don't go roaming pre three and a half minutes. And because just being there will cost them XP and gold, it just flat reduces the amount that they give.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: And to be clear, mid laners can roam bot before 3 minutes 30 seconds. That's fine. It's specifically about roaming to mid or top.
Also as rare as it is in solo queue as a top laner, don't roam mid before 3 minutes 30.
I have seen it. It's extremely rare.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: But don't be broken blade.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Don't do it.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: Or is that one exception?
[00:07:39] Speaker A: There is one exception to this rule that they state is if your jungle doesn't have smite and is no longer a jungler, this rule is completely disabled. So I mean that's just for someone. If you have a jungler that forgets smite and they come into your lane, it will not affect you in the game. It might affect you mentally, but it'll affect you.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: You will lose that game.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So if you don't have a jungle, the rules disabled. So basically just be patient on your roams. You don't have to do it right away. Just let the game establish the first few minutes first. After 3 minutes and 30 seconds, you are free to roam to any of the other lanes as a support or as an ADC or mid to top. You can swap to those other lanes, but do not lane swap before 3 minutes and 30 seconds if that's something you guys are doing, which I don't think you should be.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: All right, Mike, tell us about chess.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: So you know how a couple of weeks ago I was bitching incredibly hard that they took my chests away and that I was incredibly upset about this. Well, apparently they have listened because I am not the only one who was incredibly upset about this. And they decided to reverse the decision. They went, you know what? You guys cared a lot about this.
We're reinstating the ability to get chests. A lot of those are going to be on the battle pass system. There's going to be some throughout honor.
And then while they're doing this, they're also like tweaking the Battle Pass rewards so that, you know, you can actually get, I would say, useful things out of it instead of just a couple of skins that no one really likes and a bunch of blue essence that you may or may not use.
So I'm just happy they did this.
Also just out of nowhere in this.
This doesn't affect me. It affects a lot of you. They're drastically reducing the blue essence of champion costs. If you don't have every champion, they're massively reducing the amount of essence it costs to do it. It says by almost 50%.
It doesn't affect me at all. I've had blue essence cap.
I've had champion cap for at least eight to 10 years and I've been blue essence farming forever. But this is huge for a lot of newer players. You can finally get more champions and they're giving slightly more blue essence on. On the pathway to get there. So, like you're gonna be able to get more champions more quickly and get extra. Like this is a complete 180 from their decision.
And then on top of that, they're giving you other little things for it.
They're giving you incentives to do the play to do the actual battle Pass. They're giving you incentives to do more honor.
It's just a positive change all around and I'm probably going to be gushing about this for a while.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: It feels like they went from greedy casino owner mindset to, okay, let's give back. They've been wanting this and we're taking a little too from them and they're frustrated and they're mad at us. Let's change our ways a little bit.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: What this tells me is they saw a marked drop in spending in the player base the moment that the previous changes went live. Because there is no other way they would do this unless it was costing them money. So it's a good job, good job league players for stopping spending money when the company did a bad thing hit.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Them where I heard it's right in their pockets.
[00:11:49] Speaker C: It's a lot of other things. We were really annoyed by how the battle Pass had been changed. They changed Battle Pass mechanics back up again. We were really annoyed that they took away hextechs. They're giving them back and giving slightly more updates and the blue essence change for Champions is a long time coming. This should have happened probably 70 champions ago.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah, but literally a decade ago, it should have happened.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: But I mean, I'm sure it's something happening.
[00:12:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: At some point, I. They're probably just gonna be like, all right, everybody can have every champion. It doesn't even matter. Every champion costs one Blue Essence. Or just something like. Eventually it'll probably evolve to that.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: What's not clear is how much will new champions release at for Blue Essence?
[00:12:36] Speaker C: I believe that also is being reduced by 50%. They're doing all champion costs across the board. However, that is a speculation, and we won't know until the next champion comes out. So I normally. 7800, 7200 somewhere around there.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: They normally release it 7800 for a week and then drop to 6300 is how it used to work. I would not be surprised if they Release at, let's say, 4800 and then drop to 3150 after a week.
Yeah.
[00:13:10] Speaker C: And to be honest, this is. This is just a good way for more people to play the game more often, because you're more likely to play the more options you have.
And realistically, this helps a lot of you a lot.
Because there may be champions you have never had the ability to get simply because you don't play enough. So you're not getting a lot of Blue Essence and you're saving it up for the next new champion that's overpowered. Now you have a chance to actually get a lot of cool champions. This is also going to be like the. The intro champions, the base champions. They're going to be like 200 blue essence. They're going to be almost a free gate.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Perfect.
[00:13:55] Speaker C: They're also as it should be. Actually. I don't know if I mentioned this part. You are getting increased Blue Essence out of that Battle Pass. They're giving you more essence than before.
So this is a drastic turnaround to want to get more people playing more things.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: And I guess we should do a.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: Little side note here. They're also another little thing that we talked about I forgot to mention. But it's not a major topic for us. They're bringing Clash back to once a month.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:25] Speaker C: So everything we complained about two weeks ago is all coming back to us.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: And I think important to note that if you're a hoarder like me with like Champion shards or things like that, they are not lowering the value of the disenchant of those champion shards by 50%, you will still get the same amount of blue essence when you disenchant your champion shards so that they add that note in there, which I think is important. Also, if you have any key fragments. So if you have one or two, they are automatically going to bump that one or two to three regardless, to give you turn it into a whole key.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Because they're not fragments anymore.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: There will be no more fragments. So if you have one key fragment, it's not going to just sit in your inventory for now to the end of time. They are going to give you three to turn that into a whole key.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah, they did say in the notes it's going to take a little time to put it together and make sure it's working properly. It will happen as soon as it's ready. So don't panic. If you log in and still see a key fragment, it will happen. It hasn't happened yet.
[00:15:39] Speaker C: Now, the one thing out of all these changes they didn't do is they didn't mess with the honor shop at all. So that's still disappearing. But they messed with the honor system, which. Which I think is the benefit that they did last major patch.
So outside of like maybe giving us costs for those which I think we're getting something. If you have honor tokens, you.
This is just good.
It means that you're.
Oh. Oh. They even put the crafting tab as the beginning tab Again, thank.
Oh, hell yeah.
Every. Every single complaint that I had, apart from, I guess, what's in the mythic shop and the existence of the sanctum. But that. We're not gonna bitch about that right now. That's.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: We're not gonna win that battle. Unfortunately.
[00:16:31] Speaker C: That's been bitched enough about.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Also, I just want to point it out. If you're like me or Mike and don't need to buy champions anymore, the Blue Essence Emporium is coming in 25.07.
So soon we will be able to buy all the chromas again.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: Always got to get that onyx.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: It is wild to me. How many champions. The obsidian or onyx is the best chroma.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Oh, that's what I meant. The obsidian.
[00:17:08] Speaker C: There's so many of those like that or the prismatic one. Yeah. Onyx is its own one.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah. It depends on which line which one they have. But it's usually not always. Usually the best chroma.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I always.
[00:17:22] Speaker C: It is the worst chroma on one champion.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Which one?
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Smolder.
It puts him in blackface. It's terrible.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: I could see that. That sounds awful.
Oh, all right.
I guess that means it's my turn to talk about a systemic change.
So I was gonna put talk about runes and I'll talk about those in a moment. But I want to briefly touch on. They're also making a change to Atacon. They have not detailed this which is why I'm just gonna briefly touch on it. They want to have the first few bits of violence have more influence on seeing ruinous or voracious atacons. So early game Turret dives and that kind of stuff should count more towards ruinous outacon if they occur.
We don't have any specifics. They don't share that. So my actual like systemic change. They're changing some runes.
The first one they're changing is Axioma Arcanist because it was too strong.
They are nerfing the single target ultimate damage boost. It gets from 14% to 12%. And if it's an AOE ultimate it goes from 9% to 8% amp.
I can speak from experience. That rune was too damn strong.
Specifically on Champions. That could get away with not running manaflow band like LeBlanc.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: And if you could get that. Plus the ultimate hunter. Ooo boy.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Yup. But they're specifically nerfing the damage. Not the cooldown refund part. So the cooldown refund part is still just as strong. But you should. It should be a little harder to reach the one shot potential on the bursty chips.
Like LeBlanc and Veigar and Syndra who were some of the worst offenders with this rune.
They're buffing a couple of runes as well.
Unflinching. It's in the Resolve Tree and it gives bonus resists when you're.
I think it's when you're cc'd.
They're buffing the shit out of it early. Taking it from instead of 2 resists at level 1 to 6 resists at level 1.
That actually makes it a decent laning rune for Bot Lane. I'm not gonna lie. If you're against a Tank Bot Laner. That's a meaningful amount of extra resists in the early game when they try to engage on you at level two.
[00:19:57] Speaker C: Especially if you're one of the enchanters who gets to use that Resolve Tree.
That's real potent.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Does it make it worth taking? I don't know. But at least makes it do something.
And then the other one they're buffing is in the Red tree in Domination. Sixth Sense. The. The rune that helps you detect wards so you know you've Been spotted sucked horribly. So they're buffing its cooldown and removing the ranged penalty entirely on it.
Some use.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: They just buffed this like a few weeks ago and like they. They are really bound and determined to like people start using this and they will just keep buffing it until it is great.
[00:20:45] Speaker C: I mean there was pretty much what we said, one champion who uses it. That was Lee Sin because he was hardbound to keeping wards and even then.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: It just wasn't a very good rune. Hopefully with the cooldown buff now, it's just over 4 minute cooldown for detecting a ward before you can do it again.
It's better.
I don't know that it's good, but it's better.
[00:21:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: If you're in this tree anyway, it now is worth considering. It definitely is not worth going into this tree for.
But no ruins in that row are.
[00:21:27] Speaker C: There's a teeny tiny little change that I didn't recognize and I don't think any of us better, but we've all complained about it a little bit. They're bringing a bit more greenery back into the Noxus map.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:37] Speaker C: A slight little update to make the visual update go down. Which good it needs it.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: I noticed this when I played a game on Saturday after my Super Metroid. I played one game of League and I was like, oh, there's like vines on the map. I thought it was just part of like the Black Rose Act 2, like Black Rose taking over Noxus or whatever.
But I didn't notice greenery specifically, but I noticed Black Rose vines.
[00:22:08] Speaker C: So a little less monotone in the. In the summon. A rift again.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Yep.
All right, let's talk about champions now. Pillow hit us.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: Yes. Cho Goth, mainly mid Cho Goth to me has been a menace because he has this fun little interaction on an item and I cannot. I've been trying to think about it and I didn't look it up. What is that Shirelia's getting Shurely is. He gets. He rushes Shrulius. He hits you with a knockup. He runs you down and he kills you with his passive or not his passive.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: His E Izzy.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: And then he eats you and it's. It's. It's very oppressive and it was not fun to play against. So they're targeting.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: It's extremely low counter play. If you're playing an immobile mage. He just kills you anytime he hit.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Lands a Q on you pretty much. So they're. These nerfs are to target that mid lane Cho Goth play.
They do nerf the damage on Q and W barely. So the Q is going was 80 scaling to 340 base damage with 100% AP ratio. Now it's 80 to 320 still with the remaining 100% AP ratio. So barely even knocking that down at all.
The the screen got the same treatment. It was 80 to 300 with 70% AP and now it's 80 to 280 with 70% AP. The damage or the big nerf comes with his vorpal spurt strike. Neither his orpal spikes.
The damage was 20 scaling to 100. This is per hit with a 3% plus 0.5% per stack of the target's maximum health. And now it is 20 scaling to 100 which is still the same. And now it's half a percent less up to three and a half percent. So later later levels it will be Stronger with the 0.5% per stack of your maximum health. So early game where it was the most impressive five and so I haven't played the mid lane show. Is it I and you might know this. Is it Emax or is it still Q max?
[00:24:36] Speaker B: No, mid lane was max and Q. I think they'll switch back to E. Top lane was always an Emax in the first place.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So they'll early. You'll notice it's a little less suppressive. But now if people are going to be maxing E, it's going to be stronger.
[00:24:52] Speaker C: Now I don't know if you're going to max E in mid simply because the amount of champions that can poke him down and prevent him from actually getting his E off in the lane is probably high enough.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Basically. Emacs against Galio.
[00:25:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: And I think that's literally it.
Or like if someone plays a top lane tank in mid for some fucking reason.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: Does this take Cho Goth out of the mid lane? Not at all. He's still gonna be there. He's still gonna be running the same items Shurelli is and it's. He's still gonna be a menace. He's just gonna be down a little bit to maybe a more manageable level for now. Tell people figure their workaround on it.
But yeah, good change. Right direction. Got the right idea. I think the powers in the items myself.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Shurelli's needs to be more hardbound to Enchanters and less useful to Chogaf.
He should be paying a lot of wasted stats to get that speed buff.
And right now he's like cool, I get some AP and some HP I stats I want anyway and a button that lets me run people down.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: Good times.
Yeah, but that's an odd show.
[00:26:22] Speaker B: I'm going to talk about some burst champion nerf nerfs.
Aurora took a hit.
Her jump back and smack people at the same time ability. Her E lost 10% AP and the slow when you walk out of her ULT has been dropped from 75% to 50%.
The E Nerf helps make her a little bit less bursty. Aurora is really fucking bursty, you guys.
Like Aurora was one of the big beneficiaries of them buffing up electrocute a few patches ago.
[00:26:59] Speaker C: She does damage.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: So I actually don't think this is enough of a burst reduction. I would have rather seen them nerf her burst more and give her back some like cooldowns or something. So she could do more rotations but blow people up less on a single rotation. Because I don't feel like her champion should be a one shot burst mage.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: There's already too many of those.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Speaking of one shot burst mages, they've also nerfed the burst of Elise.
So last patch you'll remember they nerfed her burst and buffed her dps when she uses her spider W to get the attack speed.
Turns out that made her stronger overall, but they liked the shift in direction. So they're nerfing her burst burst again.
Knocking 20 base damage at max rank. Off of both forms of her or off of a human form of her Q. Not both, which is big. And then her spider form lost damage early and catches it back up at max rank, which is a little weird. I'm wondering if this is maybe a typo in the patch notes because the scaling didn't change. It's just 10 at all ranks except max rank.
I'm gonna assume that's a typo in the patch notes. I'm gonna assume it lost 1010 base damage at all ranks.
So at least it's Q. A little less bursty in both forms.
Again. I think this is good. It shifts her more towards sustained damage and less about just one shot someone and then spider repel away.
[00:28:45] Speaker C: The second one is the scaling from 50 to 80 to 180.
[00:28:51] Speaker B: Right. But it was 60 to 180 before. So that's why I'm assuming that 180 is actually supposed to be 170 on the new one.
[00:28:59] Speaker C: It does look like it should be.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: Considering it's a patch.
[00:29:02] Speaker C: Every other one is 10 down.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: I. I think it's a patch note typo. I think she lost 10 damage at all ranks on the Spider queue.
So, yeah, hopefully a little less one shotting going on around the Rift.
Hopefully, but not if this champion has anything to say about it. Mike, tell us about these Poppy changes.
[00:29:26] Speaker C: So they're giving a couple of nice little buffs to Poppy and then one damage Nerf.
Baseline damage Nerf. Yeah. So Poppy's gaining some health growth, which, considering she's frequently in the support role, very useful. They're changing how her passive shield works. So instead of having a scaling at 1, 7 and 13, it now has a just numeric scaling from 11 to 20% max HP based on your level throughout the game.
It goes up a little higher, starts a little lower, but it's better overall for the scaling and it makes it so that for more often in the game you are having a better shield.
And then they're doing 20 base damage across the board on her EE nerf and 20% bonus ad added in.
So if you're playing Assassin Poppy, like I've seen several times, it's really powerful, actually. This. This is, I think, just straight up a buff to Jungle Poppy. If you are not building Tank, if you're building Brawler, if you're building the fighter, this is just strictly better.
I think it's a little bit of a Nerf to support and a little bit of a shift in top lane.
It's. It's good for her overall and it's just.
Oh, they're only. I'm sorry, the E change is only for the max damage on the charge. So both hits.
It is. It is not the. The little minimum damage. If you only do part of it, that will be unchanged.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: Mostly I'm just hoping this doesn't bring back Assassin Poppy.
[00:31:29] Speaker C: I don't think they gave enough of an 80 ratio for it. And it's only on the E charge and only on the wall Slam.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: But I think this does solidify the sundered sky into Tank build as being solidly correct.
[00:31:45] Speaker C: Now, I think you need to have one or two sources of damage in your build to play Poppy properly.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Which annoys me because I like her better when she's just an actual Tank. She has so much strong Peel power.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: She's disgusting at good Peel. She is disgusting at Team F, she's disgusting at picks.
She's one of the best just Tanky champions.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: Never forget Dusk Blade Poppy.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:32:24] Speaker C: Never forget that AP Poppy so much.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Oh, I remember AP Lich Bane Poppy with old Poppy, with the fucking Ults that you just cast the Ult on the Soraka and then murdered her teammates. And no one could stop you. And you would literally one shot people with deathfire grasp. It was stupid.
Old league was stupid.
[00:32:47] Speaker C: It was beautiful.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: It was also that she was immune.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: To all damage that wasn't coming from her target was her old ultimate.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: That's why you would just ult the healer support.
[00:32:58] Speaker C: But she also did get a damage amp on it. So you could be like, nah, we're fucking dueling.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:05] Speaker C: And then she would 1v1 kick your ass. It's like mordekaiser before mordekaiser.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: Yes. That was what you did when there was one strong dude on the enemy team, but you were stronger ulting his support and killing him is what you did when you weren't stronger than him because then he just couldn't fight back. It was dumb. I'm glad that version of Poppy is gone. She also literally had the strongest passive in the entire game.
[00:33:31] Speaker C: That is not raw damage reduction.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:33] Speaker C: It was just raw damage reduction.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: It was any single hit that did more than 10% of your life, you took half damage from.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: It was beautiful.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Which is fucking psycho. It was so strong and it was all hidden power. I'm glad that shit is gone. New Poppy is much healthier, even if she sometimes builds assassin.
Okay, that's enough memory lane and all that. We got one more topic for our listeners tonight. Since none of you wrote in and asked any questions.
We need questions, guys. Write into theforwardspodcastmail.com so we can answer your questions on the show.
So our other topic for tonight, we're going to talk about tower diving. I know it's ironic that we're going to talk about this in the same patch where lane swaps are removed.
[00:34:24] Speaker C: But towerdiving is still something that you need to know, especially as a bot laner, because this still happens.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: Yep. Happens a lot in bot lane. We love diving, you guys down there.
So let's start it off with understanding tower diving.
What are you looking to accomplish? What are the risks? How does it work on a fundamental mechanical level?
So let's start with what are you looking to accomplish when you're turret diving beyond just killing people? Because, like, you don't need a turret dive to go for kills. Turret diving is for a specific type of advantage.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: You're taking away resources.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:35:12] Speaker C: The big thing is you're denying that usually very stacked minion wave because you're trying to build up a minion wave and then push all that in and then get them away from that minion wave.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Yes. That Is the key fundamental why turret dive instead of just killing them once the wave bounces back? Turret diving lets you deny one plus waves of experience and gold from your opponent. Because they can't be there to collect it. Because either you threatened the dive and they had to back off or you dove and killed them.
So that's why to tower dive. That's the main reason. Honestly, like you can just get gold by just farming in your lane. The reason to tower dive is to deny the enemy their resources. So what else do you need to know before you even consider a tower dive?
[00:36:07] Speaker C: How the tower works. This is important because the tower fundamentally does not the exact same thing when you are nearby as when minions are nearby.
So I do not know the precise numbers. I don't know if Jax is looking that up off the top of his head or not. But when you deal damage to a champion underneath its little targeting circle, which means your champion has to be in that circle when the damage goes off, the tower immediately shifts target to whoever dealt the damage and it starts hitting you and it does ramping damage. Every time it hits, it scales. I think 50 bonus damage. And I think it scales five times.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: I think it's 75% bonus damage. Scales five times.
[00:37:04] Speaker C: It might be that by now they they've buffed this before because towers were not strong enough.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: They just recently buffed it and they.
[00:37:12] Speaker C: Will maintain this buff while attacking Champions. And for I think it's eight seconds after champions believe the area until there are no enemy champions for it to attack.
So even if it kills one person, if it turns to the next person, it's still doing that 350something percent increased damage.
So you need to be able to take a tower hit or deny a tower hit or you need to know when you cannot take another.
Otherwise you're just giving free gold over.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: Okay, I might be wrong, but isn't the reset period like timed or the tower has hit like another like a minion twice?
[00:38:10] Speaker C: I think no, it's not based on Minions because it you can have someone who has dodged and then it will auto target a minion because there's no other targets that were dealing damage. And then you go in and do damage and it will immediately start at full percent.
[00:38:25] Speaker A: So it's only time based.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: It's not target based 5 seconds. But bear in mind turrets fire pretty slow. So I think if the turret has fired at a minion twice, I think five seconds will have passed before the next turret shot fires.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Five seconds.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: But it is five seconds, which is a long Fucking time when it comes to turret dives. And that's why you'll see sometimes like when a dive fizzles but they still have the guy heavily outnumbered. You'll see them stand on both sides of the turret to be like, you can't escape. Just wait. Because they have to wait out the fucking turret timer before they can re dive.
[00:39:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
And, and this is, this is a difficult thing that will be messed up by everyone, including pros, consistently.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:39:15] Speaker C: You can drastically outplay a tower dive.
1v3, get all 3 kills and barely survive. These are things that become possible because of how towers work.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. And to be clear, when we're talking about tower dives, we're generally talking about early to mid game, multiple people diving, less people.
We're not talking about late game 1v1 turret dives. That's a whole different beast.
Since at that point usually people's damage is high enough that it basically amounts to kill the other dude and then get out of the turret.
[00:39:58] Speaker C: Yeah, we're talking what, pre 10 minutes, pre 15 minutes?
[00:40:01] Speaker B: Pretty much pre 15 minutes.
So you know what towers do and how they work and the rules surrounding turret aggro and all of that.
How do you set up so you can do a tower dive? Because I'm gonna tell you right now, listeners, for the love of God, do not just run under an idol tower and start fighting people.
I have seen that happen so many times in fucking plat. And I don't understand how these people think that's the correct way to tower dive.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: So what should we actually do to prep it to like set up your tower dive? You're. It's going to take. It takes some planning. And you know, you get sometimes 30 seconds to a minute to know that you're going to be tower diving. Like you're, you're just planning this.
It's normally not right off the whim. Sometimes it is. But the biggest thing about a tower dive is having a minion wave there, a cushion, someone that can give you time to the setup and get in the right position.
Because like Jax just said, if you just go under the tower like you're, it's not going to work. Like, very rarely does it work unless your enemy is like 1% HP.
But you want to start by stacking your minion waves.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: Okay, explain what that means.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: So minion waves spawn every 30 seconds. It's what you do is your last hitting your slow, pushing your wave.
This comes down to make it, maybe you need to have a little knowledge in wave management and how that works. So you want to slow push your wave and make sure you're only last hitting and make sure that your minion wave always has the the number advantage. So to know that your wave is always pushing keep the enemy or keep the enemy off of the your minion wave so they don't keep it at a neutral state. And then you'll have eventually another wave show up. And now all of a sudden, your wave of three minions is now nine minions to their six that just showed up. And you either can slow push that wave. I don't Even know if 3 stacking a minion wave is possible anymore with how the minion damage has changed. But at that point, you try to wipe the minion wave on the enemy side and collapse it under the tower. And then you can start your dive.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: Okay, so you've started your dive, You've got the minion wave brought in and set up properly. The turret is now shooting the minions. This is an important qualifier there. The turret is now shooting the minions.
How do you actually begin the dive? And not just walking under the turret? Because as long. As long as there exists minions, you can just walk freely under the enemy turret, you haven't attacked them yet. It's not gonna aggro on you. With the caveats. If you have a bomby cinder item or a thornmail bramble bramble vest, they can force aggro onto you by walking in range or hitting you respectively.
So be mindful of that. But assuming you don't have those, they can't force the aggro onto you.
How do you actually turret dive as you walk in?
[00:43:39] Speaker A: So because you're under the turret does not mean you have to automatically attack the enemy. You can wait for the most advantageous moment, whether it might be waiting on a cooldown. So wait that extra two or three seconds. You got time while you have minions. The minions will not matter once you start attacking.
So if you're I immediately think of like a Leona, because Leona is great at tower diving. Leona can walk right up to the enemy, stun them, and lock them down while the ADC and jungle or whoever does the damage. Or on the plus side, if you have like playing a master Yi in the jungle, your master Yi should be the one leading for the simple fact that he can Q and drop tower aggro. You want the displacement.
I can't speak for a fact, just in my personal experience.
You want the displacement champion to be able to go first. Master Yi Kane. Six Elise.
All these champions that can Just dump tower aggro.
And you reason you want them leading is because they could safely get out. They have a get out card and they can just run away like and get rid of the tower aggro. And while you're finishing, that's how you.
[00:45:09] Speaker B: Extends to any mage that has Zhonyas.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
That's, that's how you would engage and start your, your tower dive.
You guys have anything you'd like to add to that?
[00:45:26] Speaker B: So you, you briefly touched on something that I think is. It needs some emphasis.
Leona is a perfect example of this. But you do not necessarily need to use your gap close abilities under the turret.
As Liana. It is usually correct when turret diving to just walk at them. They either have to run away from the turret, in which case you've accomplished the goal of the turret dive. They're no longer getting experience or gold or you will reach them and you will be able to stun them and then zenith blade to hold them in place longer. Because zenith blade has a root.
[00:46:06] Speaker C: There is a point when you want the kill as much or more than you want to just deny them. And that is when it is not just the bot lane jungler who is there. If a top laner has teleported in or a mid laner has gone in, it is now basically a necessity that a kill happens for it to have been worth it. When these things happen, you need to make sure those people stay put and die.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: Yes. So knowing when to use your gap close to initiate the dive versus just walk at them and be like you're about to die, what are you gonna do about it?
That is important.
So once you've prepped the turret dive, you're walking in, you're about to start fighting them. How do you actually execute the tura dive now? Pillow, you already touched on some champions or champions who build Zhonyas have the ability to drop turret aggro and should be the ones who pull tower aggro first.
What does that actually entail? Beyond just hit the enemy first.
[00:47:17] Speaker A: So how. I've always set up my tower dives and this is just a pure like top lane perspective on this.
To properly execute the tower dive one you normally don't want to do it when the enemy's at full health, you're just asking for trouble there. Especially early in the game based with.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: A pretty big power disparity to get away with those.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: Usually I like to look at if it's under 50% health and it's a champion that doesn't have shielding or some kind of healing or hard CC that's going to lock me down under the tower for an extended period of time.
If it's. If I think that it's a easy kill or if I. If I don't know 80%. If I don't feel like there's an 80% success chance on that, I'm usually not going to risk it because it is not worth. Because then all of a sudden your tower dive just turned into okay, I just gave them 300 gold. They catch their whole minion wave and there's going to be a huge power disparity. Like I have to make sure and guarantee like this is going to be successful.
Towers do physical damage.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:48:41] Speaker A: That's important to add. So like if you have a tank with lots of armor like a Ramus, great at tower diving. Because he takes zero damage from towers, I would say at the 15 minute mark he is safely able to take several tower shots.
It's. It's. Knowing your limits is the big part of tower diving. You don't do it just because you see the pros do it.
[00:49:11] Speaker B: Seriously. Oh my God.
[00:49:13] Speaker C: And they fuck it up just as often as anyone else does.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: They do. It gets fucked up all the time. In pro play. You see double and triple kills going over where it shouldn't because they fuck it up. And these are people who are literally paid to play this game. Paid a lot of money to play this game.
You reminded me of something.
If you are the person with the tower aggro dropping ability, you're the master Yi or Maokai or Elise or whatever.
Wait for a shot to be in the air at you before you pop it with your dodge ability.
[00:49:50] Speaker C: This works for almost all of them. No, if yours doesn't.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: Yes.
The reason being the way turrets work, they reacquire targets the moment you drop aggro. If there's a shot already in the air, that turret still has to wait out its own auto attack cooldown before it can reacquire a target.
If it's preparing its next shot and you drop aggro, it immediately starts shooting your teammate.
So this extra like half second before your teammate starts taking damage because you dropped it.
[00:50:26] Speaker A: Little side note, now it reminded me. I love these new towers because they have a reload animation.
[00:50:34] Speaker B: Yes. They're much more visually apparent where they're at in their auto attack cycle.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: But yeah, that, I mean that's a great point. Is.
And you use this for more than just tower diving and tower aggro. Like knowing where the tower shot is that gives you that much more time to act within that danger zone of a tower. But that's a whole different topic.
But yeah, makes dumping that tower aggro when like at the very last, the last second that you can, that you feel safe doing it is. Will buy you another two seconds or whatever the attack speed is of a tower to. What is it? Just one flat one. I think something is the attack speed. So that buys you a second, two seconds to keep going at that dive. So that is a very good point.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: All right, anything else we want to say about turret dives?
[00:51:44] Speaker A: Know when it's not gonna work. Know when you can still get out with your life and like, it's okay to fail a turret dive. Like it's not an all in, like all for nothing. Like you can still leave. You don't have to do it. Like if you're like, ah, okay, this isn't working. You can still get out with your life back and not. Not give anything other than the minion wave they were going to catch.
[00:52:09] Speaker B: Yeah, seriously, just. It's okay to just be like, cool, I see their jungler is coming. Or they started channeling teleport or we got picked with a CC as we were setting it up and we haven't pulled turret aggro yet and now the wave is gone. Any of those. It's okay to just be like, cool, we won't dive you. Then we're walking away while we still can.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: This is a topic for you guys.
[00:52:38] Speaker B: If you are getting dove, blow up the minion wave. Use your ultimate to blow up the minion wave if you have to. Because if they have no minions, they can't dive you nearly as easily.
[00:52:49] Speaker A: This is a good topic to remind you to if you have any additional questions about tower diving or anything else around the matter of towers, write us a question.
[00:53:01] Speaker B: Write in to theforwardspodcastmail.com Ask Us Questions so we can answer them on the show. Because guess what, listeners, we have no questions. That's the end of the episode.
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