[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Four Wards Podcast.
Hey, what's up?
[00:00:08] Speaker B: It's Eric Bra, voice of Draven Jerks and Velkoz.
And you're listening to the Four Wards Podcast here to help you move forward in League.
Hello and welcome to episode 533 of the Four Wards podcast. I'm your host, as usual. I'm Jack Sohlman and I've got with me just one other ward to help you move forward in League of Legends this week. It's Mike. Of many names.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: Could you not guess by? It's their only one ward. It's always me. It's always me.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: It's true. We are the two staples of the show, guys. Pillow Pet will be back soon. He's just, you know, dealing with work. It happens. That's life.
So we do have a Discord. Come join the 4 wards discord so you can play games with us, chat at us, tell us about your favorite champions or what anime you're watching, or listen to me rant about how great Mina the Hollower is or whatever else you want to do because the Discord is a fun place to be. Link is in the episode description and we look forward to seeing you there. We also stream on Twitch. I can be found at Twitch tv, jacksoman, Mike can be found at Twitch TV mikeofmanynames and when work isn't bombarding him, Pillow Pet can be found at Twitch tv, Pillowpet and of course I want to give a shout out to our patrons who support us at the shoutout tier. Thank you Codex, Ninja, Pillow Pet, Skip Pious, Esquire, Labana, Uncle Chrisco and Yeet the Dab for supporting the podcast. Now if you want to get a shout out or just support us in general, head on over to patreon.com theforwards podcast $1 a month just tells us that you love us. $5 a month gets you an exclusive feed of some behind the scenes audio of our prep work before each show. And $10 a month gets you that same exclusive feed. And we will shout your name out at the top of every episode for as long as you maintain that subscription. And all of those perks also apply to our general gaming. Podcast comes out every other week. Check out From 8 Bit to 4K on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and listeners. We have one new question this week. It's the only question in the pile, so this is your chance. Write in to theforwardspodcastmail.com or if you have to do it in The Question Submission channel in the Discord. But I'd prefer you send us an email so we can answer your questions on the show next week. That email again is theforwardspodcastmail.com alright. Fortunately, one question is enough. When it's patch week, we got a patch to talk about. It's patch 26.11.
First and foremost, a reminder that it's June Pride is here. Go into the shop and buy your one blue Essence icons and rep whatever rainbow you want to rep. It's a fun time. I want to see five rainbows coming out of the fountain at the start of games every game.
If you are part of the LGBTQ spectrum, rep the rainbow that represents you best. If you're not, just rep a regular rainbow and show your support. And if you don't want to show your support, then why the hell are you listening to this podcast? Like, seriously?
Okay, we have actual patch changes to talk about though. I'mma kick it off. I want to talk about runes, because they made changes to a bunch of runes in this one. Deathfire Touch now always does magic damage.
This is mainly just to prevent Black Cleaver from being abusive with Deathfire Touch.
Summon Aery had its damage lowered at early levels because. Or no, its shielding lowered at early levels. Not its damage, just the shielding because it was too strong at making Enchanters automatically win level two trades. Basically, Aftershock got a buff for basically almost the entire game. It gained 10 armor and Mr. And then lost 5% bonus. Mr. So you need a. Er armor and Mr. So you need a shitload of bonus armor and Mr. Before you even break even with this. This goes a long way towards making Aftershock more viable on non tanks. We might see Aftershock Lissandra back with this, for example.
And then also similar to Aery, they're changing Guardian to be more effective when it goes off, but go off in this case slightly more often. This is because the point of these rune changes is to try to skew Bot Lane away from Enchanters a little bit. And they want Guardian, which is mostly used by the tank supports, to actually be competitive with Aery ever.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, like the big thing with the botline is there's a Holy trinity of supports in Bot Lane. You have your. Your mage supports, your enchanter supports, and your tank supports. And the Holy Trinity generally functions exactly like the Trinity in a Fire Emblem game.
Enchanters, you are gonna go there. You knew me. Enchanters be tanks. Tanks beat mages, Mages beat enchanters. In general. And they don't want to buff every mage to try and get enchanters out there. So instead they're going, well, how do we make sure that tanks are less destroyed by enchanters? Works pretty well.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. So tell us about the item changes.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: All right.
In much the same way, there's a bunch of item changes.
Moonstone doesn't double dip on either heal and shield power or Grievous wounds and Shield Reaver. So you get better effects from both ways because of Helia got a little bit weaker locked up. The Iron Solari got a little more armor and Mr. Knight's vow just straight buffs, damage reduction and the healing. And now we get into the slight changes to the things. Oh, and Statik Shiv got a little more ad and Heartsteel got a little bit more permanent health conversion.
Now we have like systematic item changes. And these are more important to be talking about. Gonna start with this one right off the bat. Hex Plate is not a ranged item anymore. If you build Hex Plate, you are getting massive reductions in its power output. Like massive reductions in its power output. And they are doing.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: To be clear, I think it's still good for the ranged champions that it was abusive on before. It's just no longer quite as oppressively overpowered.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: It's no longer always the right choice,
[00:06:44] Speaker B: but it is still going to often be the right choice on Vayne and Varus.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Yes. So instead of giving you full 50 attack speed, it's now 35. So you're losing 30 effectiveness on this rune. Same thing. It's about 30% reduction in the movement speed.
Melee just fine. No, no changes whatsoever to it.
The next like systematic change is that Zeke's. They're changing how the Frostfire Tempest portion works with the alt cast.
Currently it happens as soon as you cast it. Now they're putting in a a readiness to it so that once you have cast your alt now, within the next five seconds, you have to get within range of an enemy champion and then it will trigger as soon as you're within range or immediately at the 5 second end. This is massive for people who have delayed ultimates and really want to seek convergence. Your Leonas, your Nautilus is if you play like support ornn, this would be good on you. Things like that who want to cast their ultimates and their ultimates have a lot of power, but they need time to get within a range after their ultimate cast. Next. And this one is probably the most comprehensive change because it's a full rework in what the item is doing, Imperial Mandate is getting a pretty hefty set of changes. So pretty much currently Imperial Mandate is a. I buff the person who's next to me to do a couple more things. And it was Nami and sometimes like Melio or things like that who do Imperial Mandate because that's. That's all they did to it. They gave you some bonuses and then boom, you did some extra things. Imperial Mandate is hopefully being expanded a little bit broader.
It's getting some more ap, it's getting a little bit less stability haste and more mana regen. They're changing its build path. It's instead of fiendish Codex, it's a blasting wand. Band of glass mirror is still there.
And now it's a 650 gold combined cost. And the total is 2400 up from 2250. So this is a hopefully with the changes to it, relatively gold neutral set of changes because that Imperial Mandate was one of the cheapest items you could buy. So now you also get, and this is really fucking powerful, what are called Control and Command, which are unique abilities.
Control gives you 15 ability haste for anything that immobilizes. And on immobilization for command, they're now marked as vulnerable for 6 by 6% for 4 seconds. Vulnerable is like currently only really a mechanic from Brittle from Orn. Not many things have done this before now. It's like any tank support or CC support can apply vulnerable, which is, I mean damage amplification is always strong, especially as a support item and for people who use either really long cooldown immobilizations or really fast repeatable immobilization. So like the mid range sort of 8, 9 second ones are going to be okay, but like your 4 or 5 second ones going to 2, 3 and your 30 second ones going down to 20. That's a huge increase. Like I'm seeing this being a core item on certain characters. Like I mentioned Leona. I think Leona wants Imperial Mandate not as a first time.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: The. The caveat for Leona is that it gives zero tankiness.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: It gives the worry the big problem. It's an ability haste ability power, mana regen item. All of that is dead against what Leona wants. This is a mage and Enchanter item that Leona really really wants because she applies more CC than anyone.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: But this is insanely powerful on like for example, Morgana, someone who didn't really want old Imperial Mandate because it wasn't reliable, but because it now gives ability haste on your Q and your ult by the way.
And that's the thing is that ability haste. That means it's effectively a 30 ability haste item for your Q and it's 30 ability haste for your Ult. If you're Morgana For Seraphine, it's 30 ability haste on your E and your Ultra. Like, it's so much Ability haste for all of the various mages who have multiple forms of immobilizing effects even if they're unreliable. And that's the key for Karma. This works on her W. Her W has more ability haste. Do I think you should build this on Karma? Probably not, but it works. So you want to be thinking about it in that way. Love.
This item is amazing on mages who bring CC to the table. For Bard, this means more Bard Qs and more Bard Ults. I think stasis still counts as an immobilizing effect. This item's actually really good on Bard.
So yeah. Were there any other items to talk about? Or is that all of them?
[00:11:58] Speaker A: That is all the big item changes that I remember seeing. I don't think I missed anything there.
Yeah, I think.
I think that's everything. We talked moonstone. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's everything.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Then it's time to talk about champions because there's also a lot of champion changes. This patch now, as usual, just control F your champion. In the patch notes, there's several changes we're not going to talk about. There are things like this champion gained or lost three armor, that kind of stuff. We're skipping those, but there's a bunch of those. So the first one I'm going to talk about is a champion. I've been playing a lot lately. Kassadin got some changes and the first one I'm actually going to talk about his W. They added five base damage on Hit to his wife. This is important because this is just enough that if you're starting the normal Doran's ring start, you can now last hit casters under turret the moment you skill up W After one turret shot previously, he took some more levels to increase your base AD or more AP in your build before you would reach this point. So 5 damage on hit actually matters. In his case, it doesn't really change your PvP damage, but making him much better at farming in that specific context is a big deal.
The bigger one, because this one may affect your skill order. His Q, his point and click damage that also gives him a magic damage shield. Had a second taken off the cooldown at all ranks.
It's actually so good in Matchups where the enemy has the ability to trade back at you. Like, for example, against a victor, you just max this second. And cool. He Q's you and he gets a shield. But you Q him and you get a shield and you've just neutralized each other instead of him bullying you out with his shield, which is what was happening before because of the longer cooldown. It makes a big difference.
Very noticeable. So I'm happy about the Kassadin changes. He's probably still not that great of a champion right now because he just takes so long to get going, but if he gets going, he's so scary.
All right, Mike, who do you get to talk about next?
[00:14:08] Speaker A: So I'm gonna. I'm gonna go alphabetically. We're gonna start with Diana.
They're giving her more monster damage. Just the across the board monster damage buff. I don't know why they seem to think that she doesn't have as good a clear as she does.
So she's getting more monster damage.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: We talked about this in the pre show. Diana, prior to this change, her first clear was perfectly adequate. Like, solid a tier clear. Not the fastest clear for a first clear, but, like, good.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: She can hit the sky with full clear. Yeah, right.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: And then after the first clear, as soon as you got some AP in your build, she was literally one of the fastest jungle clears in the entire game.
And they buffed it. I don't get it.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: So I'm assuming it's mostly people who are either not properly kiting who are skewing this towards her doing low and that people who are in high elo just aren't playing her because she's an assassin and assassins usually played up there.
But she's also getting a buff to her W.
They're giving her what is essentially a 10 buff to her W. A little more technically and 10 buff. So it's 2% total bonus health.
That's just a good change. More. More bonus health shield on the Palkas kid. That's just good.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Specifically that towards Bruiser.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Both. Both of these changes mean a solid, straight up solid assassin. Diana is still stronger, but it is not as much of a buff as it is to Bruiser. And the Bruiser buff is just enough that I think it's probably the better version of the build, especially with how Dusk and Dawn has been continuously changing.
And I like Dusk and Dawn a fuck ton on her still because of how her passive works. The three hit passive means Dusk and Dawn is just stronger for her, especially with how repeatable her abilities are. That's not to say that Lich Bane explosion isn't a good idea because it's still valuable. But I think your. Your default choice should skew towards Bruiser as opposed to skew towards Assassin.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: Bruiser has a significantly higher win rate than Assassin on Diana right now. It is not close.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: That's just. For the most part, Assassins are just weaker than Bruisers.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Please stop building Assassin Diana unless it's absolutely the right choice in that specific context. Okay, I got another jungler to talk about because this is a change that, thank fucking God, they're tweaking it. But I don't think this is enough to fix the problem AP Xin Zhao has. I'm gonna use Riot's words here. The sheer amount of healing has been eye popping in an extremely expectation breaking way.
Those are Riot's exact words in the patch notes. So what they're doing is they are tamping down the AP ratios on his passive for the heal. It's still high. It's just only 80% AP. At level 11, instead of 90%, he still heals a shitload.
And then they're giving him a compensation buff for it. The damage on his passive now scales with AP.
Now at that same level 11, it's 15% AP. And it has another breakpoint at level 16. He'll scale up to 20% AP damage on every three hits.
So it's not an amazing amount of damage, but it means that this isn't even a Nerf. It's just a rebalance ap. Xin Zhao is crazy. And it is, frankly, if you're not in pro play, it is the correct way to build Xin Zhao. And I don't understand why they are keeping it in pro play. It's probably the wrong way to build Xin Zhao. But we're not in pro. We'll leave that to them to figure out. All right, Mike, who do you got next?
[00:18:02] Speaker A: So I think if I'm going alphabetically, the next one's Quinn. So we're just going through the jungle still because that's where all her buffs are straight up jungling. And it's her passive got 50% stronger. 25 more damage to monsters. And her Q got one third stronger. Just another 50% bonus damage to monsters. It's just a good. It's just a good change.
So as of right now, with these buffs in mind, I want to say I think it's. I just looked up at what they saw that they.
They're calling it Quangle.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: I love, hate that they're calling it Quangle Quinn.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Jungle, I think, is just the right way to play Quinn. It's. It's really, really good if you have the team to support it. As in you don't like, need to worry. She's very good at clearing now. She's very good at getting off ganks. She's very fast. She roams real quick around the map. I think. I think straight up, I kind of. Kind of just like Quinn as the jungle. And I like it more than I like Quinn as a top. This is really powerful. Not Diana. Strong. Powerful. I think Diana is still just going to be stronger than this. Those buffs make her obscene. But yeah, I think this is just. Quinn might be a meta jungler now.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah, solidly like a tier. At least with these changes.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: I haven't done a check on her. Her first clear, because that's really probably going to be what's her holding her back the most is that first clear.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: I think her first clear is still going to be harder to execute on than a traditional regular jungler, but she's
[00:19:42] Speaker A: going to be Kindred.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Fine. Now it's. Yeah, like Kindred's first clear isn't slow. It's just more technical than most junglers. And I think that's the boat that Queen is going to land in with these changes. She is, by the way, mostly seeing play in the jungle in North America. Emerald. 71% of her play is in jungle now.
So yeah, Quinn's a jungler. Apparently. That's what Riot wants. Alright. The last champion change I want to highlight is more because it's confusing than because I think it's all that impactful. Heimerdinger got a bunch of weird changes and I'm going to cover the simple one first.
Uh, Heimer's e his grenade that he throws that stuns you. Supposed to give you vision long enough for any turrets in range to fire a laser at you while you're stunned. Due to quirks of how their like vision algorithm is run, the vision was sometimes expiring before the laser fired and sometimes not. So they've increased the vision of the target hit by the stun by a quarter second so that the turret that is in range will always have enough time to fire the turret, regardless of fluctuations in the vision logic. Functionally, this shouldn't result in any change, except for removing the edge cases where Heimer's turrets just fizzled on him and fucked him over. And on that note, they've made some changes to his turrets. They've gained 20 range and they've gained more vision range. His turrets now have 650 vision range, which is the same as a Caitlyn. So if Caitlyn can auto attack the turrets, the turrets can see Caitlyn. That is the range of vision that they have now. If they're active, they do not grant any vision while inactive. That has not changed.
The other change in here is if the only things in range of Heimer's turrets are minions, they get an extra 50 range so they can they can hit minions from 600 range away instead.
This is to try to make it less frustrating when Heimer's turrets would get outranged by ranged minions sometimes and then just.
They would just get killed by ranged minions without ever firing back.
So that shouldn't happen anymore. It shouldn't matter outside of that edge case because they're just targeting the closest minion anyway. So except in the case of only ranged minions hitting them, they're gonna have a target in range anyway, so it doesn't matter.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And theoretically this helps them as well because having a couple base extra range against minions to 600, that's the ability to now put them farther back and still hit everything.
So you can now choose whether or not you want to keep a more defensive turret line and have that be entirely up to farming minions or an offensive minion line which will still target champions first when you hit them right?
But now has just overall more range to be offensive with.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: The other key here is because they increased the base range to 550, the list of champions who can now naturally outrange Heimer's turrets is literally Zyra, Yunara, Varus, Senna, Ashe, Anivia, Annie, Caitlyn. There's a bunch of other champions, right? There's a bunch of other champions who can increase their auto range, like Kog', Maw who can also do it during abilities. Those are the champions who just baseline can auto attack outside of Heimer turret auto range. It's a really short list. It was a much longer list. There is a shitload of mages and marksmen who have 550 range. The turrets now match that, and that's why 550 is the new number for the turrets.
[00:23:15] Speaker A: It is a good change for Heimer. It just makes me slightly more mad at how bad Mao Zahar minions are.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Yep. And for people playing against a Heimer, remember, his turrets are only going to target you if there's nothing else in range or he hits you if he hasn't hit you with a spell or auto attack. His turrets don't give a shit about you. They're just targeting whatever is closest. So the you can still just blow up his fucking turrets if he doesn't have the ability to step up and actually threaten you.
All right, Mike, take us home on the patch changes.
[00:23:48] Speaker A: Well, briefly speaking of Malzahar, let's. Let's talk about his natural counter in Smolder.
So.
So Smolder's been a problem this past month or so.
The change to Deathfire is good. It brings him in line. It makes it so that he can't as easily abuse. Because that's what it is, abuse.
Realistically, both Deathfire and the fuck the Armor Shred name escapes me on top of her Black Cleaver. Thank you. Because realistically, that was the problem. He was abusing Black Cleaver and getting instant all the the procs on that thing. Plus being so much safer wearing Black Cleaver plus having such a high initial burst for a low cost.
Those problems have been with the periodic nerfs that Smolder has been getting. Minor nerfs that Smolder has been getting that have also been buffs to crit based Smolder. Because every time he's received a base nerf, his crit damage has technically gone up. If you played the correct build, they are pretty much saying look, you need to be playing crit.
And so this is going to be. This is going to be number money shabby. Because by God, the amount of working just things behind the scene in in how his passive works is an eye.
So the base magic damage, the bonus magic damage on Q has a crit ratio point. The passive base damage and then a bunch of other things to go with the stacks. The base 40% also plus crit chance times a half. We're not going into different things on that.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Specifically what is changing is just the portion that is affected by his stacks. Yes, the base damage of the ability has not been changed.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: This patch, they already messed with that previously.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: Now it's based on stacks which increasing the power based on stacks with Crit, because that's how this is working, is getting better. It is getting a noticeable buff to the the times crit chance plus bonus crit damage. But the base damage, that's why the numbers problem is a problem.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Okay, I'll break it down very simply
[00:26:10] Speaker A: until you get to certain points.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: His Q is always weaker, but it's like 2% weaker when you're at 100% crit with IE and massively weaker when you have no crit and you have a lot of stacks early in the game. This doesn't matter because you don't have a lot of stacks yet. His E is slightly better when you have full crit than it was before.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: So theoretically at very high stack amounts, the crit bonus does even out and go higher because it is now 1.2 as opposed to 0.5. So like you are just straight up getting more out of your your stacks for crit because that's how the crit scaling thing works to it. You're not seeing this benefit until you're at like 200 stacks. You need to hit the the scaling point of smolder before this buff happens. Yeah, but it's the bonus magic damage on your Q, not any of the base damage down in the other their going on there. But also he is getting a tweak to the bonus magic damage on his E to also scale with crit as opposed to just passively dealing with stacks. So as opposed to just 12% of your passive stacks, it's now 8% plus that crit chance numeric that they have within your queue with slightly tweaked numbers plus passive stacks. So this makes it so that around the same formula breakpoint, your passive will be stronger with crit on both your E and your Q. The number minutia like this, this is a deep numbers minutiae. 8% times 1 plus crit chance times 0.6 plus 1 plus 1. Exactly. No talking about this is going to helpful.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: The takeaway you should actually have is if you're building Bruiser smolder, you do way less damage than you did prior to this patch.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Significant.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: If you're building crit smolder, you'll do slightly less damage in the mid game and about the same late game.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: And if it gets to like a 50 minute game, you will be doing more damage slightly not by much, but more.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Which is fine because if you're at like six items bullshit with crit like you should be dealing world shattering amounts of damage as an ad campaign.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: You should be doing world shattering amounts of damage. Yes. And that's pretty much what it is like. Smolder not only scales better with stacks, but only if you build crit because now he is weaker with all stacks. Otherwise essentially just build crit is how we should be saying this.
Because by God, pretty much, yeah. At this point, like if you're playing smolder in mid, you're allowed one non crit item. What is your one non crit item going to be. Is it going to be life steal item, Is it going to be the manamune? Because he scales really well with manamune.
And then the question being bot Lane, you still want 100% crit, but now you have a little bit more freedom.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Yep. And this is a good thing because Bruiser Smolder is hard to balance if he's good because he's too bruisery, he's hard to burst out Crit Smolder doing this kind of damage is fine because if he miss positions, he gets blown the fuck up.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: He dies instantly. Instantly does not matter.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: Okay, so speaking of instantly, we have a trinket tip for you this week coming from listener Yeet the Dab who tells us that certain runes are really good for checking bushes. When you have AOE or long range spells, runes such as Comet Conqueror, Aery First Strike, Scorch, Taste of Blood and Manaflow Band will trigger when you hit an enemy that is out of vision, you can use them to check bushes. Instead of walking in and face checking, you will instantly know if there is a hostile in there.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Some of these are much easier to tell than others. Comed and Airy are the two that you will always see a visual effect. You don't necessarily see one on Scorch or Taste of Blood. You might see one with Maniflo Band because of how Manifold works.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: The key is you have to look at your buff bar for several of those.
[00:30:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Other of those are check a look at your buff bar.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: This also applies to some items. If you have a tier, it will gain stacks if it hits someone. So you'll know, oh, there was someone in that bush. I gained tear stacks.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: This really matters to effects like Xerath Q which don't have a visual effect when they hit a target. Unlike say Morgana Binding or Ezreal Q.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Yeah, you'll know when those hit because the binding or Q the Q stops. Yeah, you won't know for Xerath because it goes the whole distance regardless. Or like Lux Q if it hits one target. How are you going to know? Well, you'll know because it triggered your comment. Okay. Speaking of Yeet the Dab, he's also our Listener question for tonight. So we're going to answer Yeet's question.
Yeet writes with Finish youh Quest Meta. What are the conditions under which you might roam or swap lanes partway through the game without finishing your quest as a laner? I know there's a video of hle bluffing getting rank one Korea by Playing engage supports and being roam heavy.
So I want to talk briefly about the rules involved in the role quest system, because I think that's going to be the best way to frame this question.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: So yeah, we're going to point this out. Hle isn't breaking these things. They are abusing very specific portions of the rules to perfectly deal with it. They are not ignoring the quest system, they aren't failing at it and bluffing out doing other things. They are abusing minutiae in technicality.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: So here's the first part. If you make things happen out of your lane, you still do get points towards your quest. If you roam to mid and you get a turret plate on that roam, that's 20 points. You would have gotten 40 if it was off your own turret. But if you can't get a turret plate, 20 is better than zero.
So that's part of it also is you still get points out of your lane, you still get passive generated points out of your lane. So you're not getting zero, you are just getting less by being out of lane.
But there's also a rule where if you are in your lane for two minutes, you are allowed to then spend one minute without penalizing your progress.
If you've been in your lane for two minutes, you have one minute of roaming where you'll still get in lane values for things you'll get in lane values for kills, in lane values for turret plates, in lane values for whatever else.
And on top of that, some things simply don't have in lane versions. If you're roaming to help your team take down dragon or grubs, those are worth points towards your quest regardless of what lane you're in. Except support I guess, because Support Quest is kind of its own special rules.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Support Quest has its own unique rules
[00:33:03] Speaker B: and those points are the same no matter what. So just help your team do the objective because you're going to get the
[00:33:10] Speaker A: points and that's probably the one that's the most Support is the least penalized by roaming in the game because of their quest's design by default. Yep.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: If if they spend all three charges, they have until they reach three charges again before they're starting to lose progress on quest because their quest is based on consuming the charges of their quest item and not based on any other variable. Their quest does not care what lane they are in.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Which is the most like the thing that looks like it's most abusive is Support Realms. And Support Realms, especially in Pro, they are doing things with their realms that will always Give them points towards their quest. They're always going into lanes and putting CC down, hitting people. They're going into the big jungle mechanic things and doing things with grubs and dragon. The only thing that they do inherently that doesn't work towards their quest is put wards down. And frankly that's the other half of a support's job to begin with.
So they're still doing their job, but they're not passively gaining experience towards their quest, because that's not how support quests work.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Yep. But the key here is, since your question is about someone playing engage supports, because the support quest does not specify a lane. If they go and gank mid lane, they hit the enemy champion during the gank and consumed all of the charges, however many they had built up. And then they go back to bot lane and hit the enemy bot lane and consume all of the charges. No matter how many they had built up. They're literally just doing their quest. This isn't abusing their quest or doing something out of the ordinary. This is literally just how supports are supposed to be played at a high level.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: And the roaming power is exceptionally potent in mid lane with the two to one point on that, that allows them to essentially go in lane, stay for a wave. Two waves most likely, because that's more along the time and then be out for about a wave. So yep, it's. It's essentially the two to one point. You almost don't have time to bounce a wave. Back away, come back, come back away, back, back away. Yeah.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: And it should be noted that the, the roaming thing is for roaming. It does not apply when you back. When you back, you still get 12 seconds of not gaining passive points.
Yes, this is for roaming.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: Top laners spend so much time within their lane that they usually have a massive set of time built up in which they can just. It doesn't matter that I'm not in my lane right now. I'm in the jungle messing around because I was in my lane for six minutes straight. So they pretty much have a full cache to roam with impunity. Jungle obviously doesn't have a timer on theirs. Theirs is scaled by killing jungle creeps and monsters.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: And AD Carries really only roam for two reasons. They roam because they need. They, they want the objective and this objective is important for them. Or they roam because they've already destroyed bot tower. The fact that they can do that before their quest is taken is actually kind of disgusting. But if they have completed that entire portion and destroyed the tower, they have been in lane long enough that by the time they would be penalized for being out of lane, they are probably fully capable of just finishing the quest in any other lane.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I played a game not very long ago where my bot lane crushed the enemy bot lane so hard so fast, they had already taken the Turret at like 9, 10 minutes. I hadn't completed my mid lane quest yet. They had completed their bot lane quest because they had so many kills under their belt.
And champion takedowns are worth points by the way.
But they then came and came mid like you're supposed to do when you take a turret. But I still had 400 points to go on my mid lane quest.
And my opposing mid laner was a waveclear champ who just stayed in mid and wave cleared against them while I was stuck going bot against their bot lane, who was so far behind I could lane against them just fine. But it took me till I think 16 or 17 minutes to complete my quest because I was just forced out of mid. So that's when swapping lanes is wrong, is when by doing so you are putting your own teammates behind.
I was a huge power trough because of this.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: If they were doing the, the Caitlyn thing of that tires dead. Okay.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: I think it was literally a Caitlyn game.
[00:38:04] Speaker A: And then so they, they went to the wrong lane, essentially. They should have gone top lane, destroyed top lane and then moved down to mid because that is the power of what that is supposed to be. I'm taking the tower, we're destroying things and then we're moving, moving into this is a fundamental problem with the thought process of the game. Oh no, I've taken my tower. Time to go mid lane.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: Not necessarily often, but not always.
So yeah, that was. I, I bring it up not like as complaining about a specific game. It's whatever. I think we still won that game. But as an example of when doing the generally accepted right thing of we took our turret, let's go take the next turret puts your team at a disadvantage because they didn't take the role quest into account.
So take not just your own role quest progress, but your allies role quest progress into account when you're switching lanes as opposed to just roaming and ganking. In that same context. If they had taken their lead and just walked to mid, helped me kill the mid laner, helped me take mid turret, instead of fighting me for waves and pushing me off of mid, we would have just won the game. Like right?
[00:39:15] Speaker A: Yeah, that would have been something where if they had played it correctly by what we determine as correct. They could have shoved down all three turrets and done the like pre 20 minute, all 15 fucking plates are dead. They could have.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: It was specifically the walking into mid and pushing me off the wave so I couldn't farm instead of ganking my opponent. This was, I think I found the game in question. This was a Veigar on the enemy team.
Veigar can just nuke waves with his W if he's unable to.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: If he's so inclined to not Q farm, Vigor can destroy waves easily.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Yeah, which is what this guy did. And what's Caitlyn Senna gonna do against a Veigar just deleting waves with his W? Fucking nothing.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: He can completely stun the thing with his wall, delete the wave and walk away.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: Exactly. But if they had, instead of walking up and taking the wave, used that roam timer and come in from the side and ganked Veigar. Veigar has a flash and then he's dead the next time and you just gank him and then you go push turret plates and then when the wave resets you do it again. And that's how you push a lead in those situations. So again, I'm not trying to vent about this specific game. I'm trying to explain why you see HLE bluffing, getting rank one, playing engage supports and being roam heavy. But maybe playing roam heavy the wrong way can be detrimental.
[00:40:40] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So one of the other things with, with HL's thing, they're roaming consistently across the board.
Not roaming, taking over, roaming, taking over. They're using the ability to. I'm moving here, pushing my power here, moving around to another place to push my power here and usually roaming back for a little bit to then increase the lead there and then moving around. The supports in general, all over the world are now as, as mobile as possible.
They're ganking top randomly. At level three. They are pushing in to randomly push people off of their jungle camps. It's, it's a wild card to see what a support can do when the AD carries are so good that they are capable of surviving a 1v2.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. Of course, if you just play Lucian in the top lane, you don't need to care about any of this because why would you roam when you're just gonna walk through top and end the game?
[00:41:39] Speaker A: You're just gonna waltz down the line, grab that tower, grab the next tower. Realistically, you, you, your quest is gonna be the only thing that's happening because you're just never gonna leave top there.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: You go.
So, guys, this has been episode 533 of the Forwards podcast. I'm going to reiterate. That was it for our question queue. Please write in to the4words podcastmail.com so we can answer your questions on the show or drop questions in the question submission channel on the Discord. Seriously, if it's a.
[00:42:08] Speaker A: If it's, this is the best time to do a question right now. If it's something that has to do with even the matter right now that you're struggling with, you have the option to get a question that done this week before patch changes even go through. We can give a question immediately.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Yep. Please ask. That's going to be it. We'll see you guys next week. Bye Bye.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: Good night, everybody.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Four Wards Podcast. If you want to support the show directly, consider checking out our
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And of course, send your questions to the Fourwards podcastmail.com so we can answer
[00:42:48] Speaker A: them live on the show.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: That's the Four Wards podcastmail.com.
