The Four Wards Podcast - Episode 491: Yunara's Sad Clown Posse

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Four Wards podcast. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Hey, what's up? It's Eric Bra, voice of Draven Jerks and Velkoz and you're listening to the. [00:00:14] Speaker C: Four Wards podcast here to help you. [00:00:17] Speaker B: Move forward in league. Hello and welcome to episode 491 of the Four Wards podcast. I'm your host Jack Zoman and I've got with me three other wards to help you move forward in League of Legends. We've got Mike of many names. [00:00:49] Speaker D: Hey everybody, I'm around. [00:00:51] Speaker B: We've got Pillow Pet. [00:00:53] Speaker A: Hello. [00:00:54] Speaker B: And we've got Codex Ninja. Hi guys. And guys. We are the four Words podcast. We have a Discord. Come join the Discord. Come hang out. Come play games with us. We play normal games like once or twice a week. Just join the Discord so you'll know when it's going on. We tend to just ping here and anyone who's here can come join us. So come join the Discord and play with us. Link is in the episode description. We also stream on Twitch. I can be found at Twitch TV, Jacksolman, Mike can be found at Twitch TV, MikeofManyNames and Pillow can be found at Twitch TV, PillowPat and Shoutout goes out to Codex, Ninja, Pillow Pet and Robegon for supporting us at the Shoutout tier. Guys, if you want to get shouted out or just support the podcast in general, head on over to patreon.com theforwards podcast $1 a month just tells us that you love us. $5 a month gets you an exclusive feed of some behind the scenes audio of our prep work before each show and $10 a month will get you that same feed and your name and lights shouted out at the top of every episode. Last but not least, listeners, we did not get any new questions this week. Y' all are being carried by weeks past. Write in to theforwardspodcastmail.com or write in to the question submission channel in the Discord so we can answer your questions on the show. Alright, with all of that out of the way, our main topic tonight, we talked about it last week. It's finally time. Yunara is here, the new ad carry champion. This. What is she? Ionian, I think. [00:02:26] Speaker D: Yep. Like she's Ionian of the Gitz. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I literally just guessed. I didn't actually know. I was just like, she looks Ionian. [00:02:35] Speaker A: She looks like a goat. She's got the horns and the ears. [00:02:38] Speaker D: She's got the little spirit horns. [00:02:39] Speaker B: I guess I didn't even think about that. Okay, you derailed him completely derailed. My brain went elsewhere for a moment. I blame Helltaker and there's like maybe one person listening who will understand why I say that. And they'll think it's hilarious. So we're gonna talk about Ynara. We're gonna talk. First of all, we want to cover just her basic kit. Because this Champion's kit is weird. I think we can all agree that it's weird. [00:03:10] Speaker D: It's weird. And yet it is also incredibly simple. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:15] Speaker E: I don't know you really? I don't know about weird. [00:03:20] Speaker D: It does some odd things. [00:03:21] Speaker E: It does odd things. I would not consider it weird. But I don't know. Maybe I just need to be a little adversarial. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Let's start with the fact that she does not get a passive until she's built some crit. Because Ynara's passive is that her crits do bonus magic damage. And this scales with AP only. But of course there are no AP crit items. So mostly it's about a 10% bonus magic damage on crits. [00:03:46] Speaker D: Pretty much. Like there's a way to get more. It has a ratio obviously, but it's not really good. It's not worth losing the actual crit over. [00:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Because you deal no bonus damage on every Auto that doesn't crit. Maybe in the future if they give us some AP crit itemization, she'll be able to use it. [00:04:08] Speaker D: Champions. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. She might be one of those champions where like it matters more to get to 100 crit than it does to get like an extra life steal item in there or something. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Potentially. [00:04:18] Speaker D: I do believe otherwise. [00:04:20] Speaker B: I do believe there are AP crit items in arena. So she might actually be really good in Arena. I don't know. [00:04:26] Speaker D: I think there's one. It's been a long time since I've. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Done Arena same, but if you're an arena head, write in. Let us know what you think of Yunara in Arena. Lets talk about her actual abilities. We're going to start with her Q. It's like the ability that is kind of iconic to how she works. Her Q gives her bonus magic damage on hit. When you have built up enough stacks which takes four auto attacks against Champions or eight Auto attacks against Minions or monsters, you can cast Q so very similar to Ashe in terms of the mechanics of how the Q works to be allowed to use it. And just like Ashe, when you activate it, it's a steroid. You get a bunch of attack speed. You get more on hit magic damage and Then Ynara spreads her auto attacks. This works similar to Ryze E if you've ever seen that ability, in that it just spreads from whatever you shoot and hits everything nearby. This spread does do reduced damage and applies reduced on hit effects. Ynara's next two abilities have two versions based on whether or not you ultimately. So I'm going to jump to her Ult next. Ynara's Ult transforms her for 15 seconds. During that 15 seconds, her Q is just active. So you're just. You're always getting the full on hit damage, the attack speed, the spreads, everything. And then her W and E are transformed into new spells. That's it. That's the entirety of what her Ult does. So let's talk about those W and E. Ynara's W throws a bead in a direction. It's just a skill shot. If that skill shot hits anything, it slows down and hits it repeatedly. When it reaches the end of its duration, it spins in place for a moment and hits repeatedly. If Ynara is in her ultimate form, she instead shoots a laser. And this has a short cooldown. Ynara's E, you press the button and you get some bonus movement speed and you are ghosted. So she's one of the very few champions that has the ability to run through minions or monsters or other champions built into her kit. If you run towards an enemy, you run faster than if you're running away. If you are in your ultimate state, this ability instead becomes a dash. Now, the cool thing is the ultimate resets the cooldowns on the W and the E when you use it. So you can throw a bead and give yourself some bonus movement speed and immediately Ult and dash and shoot a laser. [00:06:54] Speaker D: The laser is a lot like Aurora's in that it's. It's just a laser directly out from her. Boom. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Yep. [00:07:01] Speaker D: Doesn't knock her back though. So it's theoretically better because you're trying to run towards people. The damage on it, it appears to be more like the. The W damage is like if you combined the initial damage with the dot damage that sits there and spins. That's about how much damage the laser does automatically. So it's not like any of her abilities get substantially stronger through her ultimate. She just gets to use them in a different form and it lasts a lot longer. Especially her Q. Yep. [00:07:34] Speaker B: So now that we've run through what her abilities do, what do we think about her abilities? [00:07:40] Speaker E: So the first part that I want to cover is that Her Q is pretty much probably 70% of the kit. [00:07:51] Speaker B: In terms of power. Yes. [00:07:52] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Just full stop. Yes. [00:07:55] Speaker E: Yeah. The more subtle thing that is important when you are an AD Carry is that when you activate your Q, it resets the basic Attack timer. So instead of 1, 2, 3, you can like 1, 2, 3, 4. It's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Like you can exceed quickly to. Actually. [00:08:22] Speaker D: Yeah. It's an Auto Attack reset. [00:08:23] Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:24] Speaker B: So which is rare on Ranged Champions. [00:08:27] Speaker D: Very rare on Ranged Champions. [00:08:29] Speaker E: We don't get basic Attack Timers. So this is a big new thing. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Again, Ashe is like the prime example of having this previously. This ability is very similar to Ash's Q in many ways. [00:08:42] Speaker E: One other thing, her having the R, like having two. Like having the ability to just activate your Q is pretty nice. So like she is kind of an Ult Reliant champion in that sense. Because otherwise you have to spin yourself up and like it's not impossible, especially if you have waves around you. But if you don't have something to hit, you are currently just waiting for the fight to happen. You have to keep going and keep those stacks going. So it can get like challenging if you are not level six. The only other one, her E also resets the basic Attack Timer as well in the R form. So the Super Jump. Yep, the. The Super Jump resets her. Her Attack timer as well. [00:09:40] Speaker D: And that actually that and a bit of like you. You essentially don't have an Auto attack during it. So it allows you to immediately start the Auto attack again. But you. You would have lost the Auto attack in the meme point. It lasts long enough that you would have lost that Auto attack. So essentially it's just giving you your Auto attack immediately afterwards. Don't use it to try and gain another one because it's not. It's not actually a DPS gain unless you are losing range. [00:10:05] Speaker E: I will say this is more because all ADCs suck, not because this is awesome. Most ADC abilities stop the Auto attacks and this is the first one that feels like cocaine. It's amazing to just keep on. Like you activate your jump to go in and start running them down and it doesn't. It resets your Auto Attack timer so you aren't like you weren't having that burr in. In the rhythm, if that makes sense. So it feels really, really good to use your E to reset and. And keep on running. [00:10:41] Speaker D: So there's a. There's a. There's a couple more things about the queue that are important to know. It's it has some interesting interactions with the. The spread. The spread things. So a couple of things about that one. Her. Her spread hits her little. They're basically the splash effect. Splash. [00:10:59] Speaker E: We're going to call it Splash because it is kind of a splash. [00:11:02] Speaker D: They deal damage purely based on AD. They deal 30% AD physical damage. All of them apply lifesteal. All of them apply on hit effects. There are 30% of those as well. They can crit. They do a boatload of extra damage to minions. Weirdly enough, below 30% of their max health. So like this is a way to not lose a bunch of extra farm because you accidentally hit your Q. Like Tristana frequently loses farm because she exploded. And ah man, that thing was a little bit too off. One auto lost it. This should pretty much negate that for the most part because of the bonus damage that it gets. The other weird but interesting thing. Only Yunara's original attack has to target something visible. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:54] Speaker D: Those splashes can hit invisible targets. [00:11:57] Speaker B: And that means people hiding in a bush. That means people who are actually invisible. Like a Shaco or Kha' Zix that happens to be in a minion wave. It does not matter. [00:12:08] Speaker A: Do we happen to know. Do the splashes prioritize enemy champions or is it kind of like a close everything in radius. [00:12:15] Speaker E: Everything in radius. Yep. Which is actually why if Ynara is ever fighting in a cluster of things, she's really dangerous because those clusters. Like it radiates to everything. [00:12:31] Speaker D: Oh, there's actually more to this. I missed this other part. There's a weird interaction that is amazing for her. So most of the time when you hit that Q it's just you gain more attack speed. That Q also lowers her initial wind up on the attacks. [00:12:46] Speaker C: Yep. [00:12:47] Speaker D: So you're essentially kind of double dipping from attack speed. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Kind of. So this means she's easier to auto attack and then move in between autos. And it means that the damage comes out sooner in the attack time. It does not mean more auto attacks in the same amount of time. [00:13:05] Speaker D: Yes. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Important to clarify. Other stuff to note. On hit effects are applied at 30% for damage. Other on hit effects you get full value. To my knowledge that basically means cull. And then that means a few of the like stacking effects. Like there's weird interactions for her with Hullbreaker and Kraken Slayer because of this. There's Brain. She probably stacks. If she's hitting splash on Champions. She probably stacks Terminus super fast. I can't imagine why you'd want to build Terminus on Her. But she would stack it super fast. Rageblade, same thing. She'll stack Rageblade super fast because of this. [00:13:46] Speaker E: Yeah, currently. And I suspect this one's gonna get fixed the way that the splash occurs with her Q. Right now, as of today, if you have 20 minions in front of you and your Q is stacked and you press it for the splash Q auto attacks, it will register for all of them. So you'll get 21 stacks of Kraken's Lair, like in a single auto attack. Because they're still considered hits, if that makes sense. [00:14:19] Speaker A: I wonder. I wonder, like just thinking about that because I was going to mention that because I've seen some videos of that and it's just ridiculous. You just crack and Slayer. Crack. Slay, crack. Slayer. Wonder how right now how it works with Hurricane since it's counting autos. If it's just like a Aphelia's Ult. A flame Ult. [00:14:37] Speaker E: Yeah, kind of. Yeah. [00:14:40] Speaker B: Hurricane applies the splash. It does not stack the splash. [00:14:44] Speaker E: Yep. It doesn't stack it. I do feel that the. The. What Riot wants is that her to be hardbound to Hurricane. I think that the reason why her auto attack range is so long because it's 575. It's because she needs to get in. There's a weird angle with Hurricane builds that you need to get into it to. To start dispersing the bolts. [00:15:11] Speaker D: Yeah. Yara is the second largest range of auto attacks, period. Of the people who don't have extended auto attack ranges like the base auto attack range, she's second longest amongst AD carries. [00:15:26] Speaker B: Caitlyn. Ash both exceed her 600. Annie and Anivia also exceed her. And then Senna starts out exceeding her and then just grows from there. [00:15:35] Speaker D: So Senna, Senna and her both have 575. [00:15:37] Speaker B: I believe Senna's at 607. [00:15:39] Speaker D: 600. Okay. Yeah. So like she has the second highest number that. That 575 dot. I think maybe Varys. [00:15:47] Speaker E: Varys. [00:15:47] Speaker B: She's tied with Varys. [00:15:48] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:15:49] Speaker B: Caitlyn's the longest. Then Ash and Senna. Then Varys. Ynara is ash. [00:15:54] Speaker D: Actually big 600. [00:15:57] Speaker B: Ash has the second longest auto attack range of all. Lady carries third highest in the entire game. Caitlyn's the longest and second longest. [00:16:06] Speaker E: Caitlyn should be the longest. Like that's. That's why you play. Caitlyn is the long auto attack range. [00:16:11] Speaker B: And this is not counting Aphelios when he has Green Gun, which matches Caitlyn. [00:16:16] Speaker E: But Aphelios gets Everything. [00:16:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:20] Speaker E: So has anyone tried with Yasuo? Does the splash go through wind wall? [00:16:26] Speaker B: So this is a defend for test on the wiki. [00:16:29] Speaker E: Okay, cool. I was just asking if you'd seen it. I've seen footage that in arena her laser goes through windwall. [00:16:37] Speaker D: It is. [00:16:39] Speaker E: Yeah. Because it's not considered a projectile. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Lasers go through windwall. It does say. This is interesting on the wiki, it says that if you are blinded as Ynara, the spread will still deal damage even though your primary target will not take a hit. So you can actually like, if you're blinded and there's someone at like one GP right next to something else, hit the something else, don't hit them and you'll get the kill, which is a funny interaction attack Teemo Shrooms instead of him potentially sometimes. [00:17:09] Speaker E: So you know, I know that you said that the spread was only 30% AD damage, which again we have on the wiki. But if they can crit, does the passive still deal ap? [00:17:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:20] Speaker E: Okay. [00:17:20] Speaker B: Because it applies on hit effects. [00:17:22] Speaker E: Because it still applies on hit effects. Again, this being an on hit effect. Okay. [00:17:27] Speaker B: So the spread applies her passive. If the attack was a crit, it applies the passive magic damage of the Q itself because that's an on hit effect. It applies on hit effects such as wit's end, Nashor's, etc. All at 30 value because they are damage effects. [00:17:45] Speaker D: So like she doesn't gain a lot from building AP because of this. And. And then with her W is her only other damaging ability. It's actually her only damaging ability. Has a. A worse AP ratio than an 80 ratio. Yeah. Significant margin. So like as much as she has this, this passive with magic damage that you're trying to see if you can build, there's like no point. I don't. They need to either completely change how the ratios work with her because as of right now, like what's the point of putting an AP ratio if it's just statistically lower than building more ad? [00:18:26] Speaker B: I just want them to just change her passive to not be a crit strike effect. Rebalance accordingly and let her be an actual on hit AD carry. Because it feels really bad being bound to crit just because you don't have a passive. [00:18:37] Speaker D: If you. [00:18:37] Speaker B: You don't build crit. [00:18:38] Speaker D: Or they need to actively like actively make AP crit items. [00:18:42] Speaker E: Yeah, or, or that. Right. Because I think, I think that that would be the game. [00:18:47] Speaker D: My, my philosophy here is. Is actually probably a quick one. Switch the passive portion of her cue with the passive. There and that way she'll always have a passive. She'll do some bonus magic damage. And then when you have the Q in, you still have your passive bonus crit thing. That way you at least always have a passive. [00:19:07] Speaker B: I don't know that really changes much. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Well, I think it's really nice about. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Have the Q passive. [00:19:13] Speaker A: What I think is really nice about the passive that they did give her is it does give some kind of answer to a tank that builds pure armor. It's kind of hard to just. From my first impression, just I've only played her the one game, but I did notice that like you, it's hard to itemize against her because she can't just because it is actually doing magic damage, not increased physical damage like some items do. Like some items magic damage. [00:19:40] Speaker D: Yeah, it's not so partition. [00:19:43] Speaker B: And not just that, but also her abilities all do magic damage. But her auto attacks are going to be predominantly physical. So she. She has a good mix of damage types like that laser chunks, tanks, if they just stack armor. [00:19:56] Speaker D: Huh. [00:19:57] Speaker A: I think she would be a good user to choose between like a Rageblade inner kit or even a Nashers. Maybe in her kit. Kind of like she doesn't want to be a dominantly ap. You can just. Like we were talk. You guys were talking like based off her AP ratio, she's not an AP champion, but on hit AP items might be decent in with her kit. [00:20:21] Speaker D: So we'll talk about that. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say, do we wanna just talk about builds on her since that's kinda where we're naturally transitioning. [00:20:27] Speaker D: Yeah, we'll do builds before roll. We can do that. [00:20:29] Speaker B: Okay. So if you look at stat sites, by far her most built item is Unital Wild Arrows followed by Runaan's Hurricane, then Infinity Edge. No other item is close to those three. She seems to be relatively hardbound to those three as her first three items according to stat sites. I'm gonna share with you guys a hot take. I think she's better if you just don't give a about having a passive at all and just accept that you're not gonna do as much damage. This is gonna sound really dumb. [00:21:01] Speaker D: We're gonna talk. [00:21:03] Speaker B: I think her best build is experimental hex plate into Titanic into Rageblade. [00:21:09] Speaker D: Yeah, so. So here's. Here's the. The raw numbers on it. I did. I did some crunching when she first came out and I've. I've done a little bit more since. If you want to go crit, which is the most damaging you can do. You should start untol and you should go into I edge. Don't go with the hurricane second. You already have attack speed from untols. You have attack speed from your Q and your Ult. [00:21:33] Speaker C: Yep. [00:21:33] Speaker D: The. The raw damage matters a lot more. You can get hurricane or pd. I think Petey's probably actually stronger for her, but a lot of people will prefer hurricane. Or if you're facing a lot of tanks, you go into your armor shred item. Your last item should almost 100 be a bloodthirster. Yeah, it is. [00:21:53] Speaker B: And her. Her splash does apply lifesteal also at. [00:21:57] Speaker D: 30% effect, it's the most lifesteal you can get. It's the most damage you can get. Getting this gives you way more damage on her abilities is as this build goes forward than anything else. She does more damage this way with her W than you would if you built pure AP. Like 700 AP. You're doing more damage with this AD build than you would if you're building pure AP. So there's no point in building AP. [00:22:25] Speaker B: I think AP more than a Nashers is troll always. Nashers is arguable because at least it does give more AP ratio for your basic autos and it has attack speed. So, like, it's not wasted the way other AP items are. [00:22:39] Speaker D: This is about 15 more DPS than if you went, all right, I'm gonna go on hit. Let's go Kraken Slayer into Rage Blade into Mashers. Get some ap, some attack speed, some other on hits, Bork, etc. But you. You don't want too much attack speed items because your Q, you cap on attack speed real easy. [00:23:03] Speaker C: Yep. [00:23:04] Speaker B: So same reason like Tristana doesn't want to build a ton of attack speed. [00:23:07] Speaker D: So unfortunately a lot of on hit items are heavy attack speed. So you need to like pick and choose where to put the on hit and where to be. Like, all right, well, maybe we can get a black cleaver in this or something else. You lose if you built nothing but the on hit items. About 15% raw DPS and you lose lifesteal, you lose all of your passive. And you are kind of weirdly enough, more physical damage because a lot of the stuff they've sort of gated to be physical damage. And then we have the let's go oh, Geezeri here and build Titanic and Hex blade and. And you lose about like 40% DPS like raw final DPS. But you gain like an entire second champion's worth of health so you don't. [00:23:59] Speaker E: Die nearly as fast. [00:24:01] Speaker B: Not just a ton of health, so you don't die nearly as fast. But it leans into her strength of late game AOE team fighting. [00:24:09] Speaker D: It still. It still does a good chunk. A good chunk of aoe. [00:24:13] Speaker B: If you're able to hit multiple targets, it's almost comparable to the other builds in damage because of the splashing from Titanic. [00:24:20] Speaker D: Yeah. It will do more damage to secondary targets than the primary, should we say? So it's. It's a better, like, clumped up team fight. [00:24:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:29] Speaker D: But it is significantly worse at killing one target. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:33] Speaker D: Which leads into. [00:24:34] Speaker B: I just. [00:24:35] Speaker D: I think that's probably where her best thing is. [00:24:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I like that build because it leans into her strengths. It says, hey, I'm a shit single target champ anyway, because my kit is not designed for that. I'm gonna be the AOE teamfight monster. I'm gonna be the SIVIR or zeri equivalent of just, oh, we made it to a late game team fight. I annihilate your entire team in three seconds if I'm allowed to auto and I have enough health that it's hard for you to stop me from autoing. [00:25:00] Speaker D: I think any build in which she is not building crit, you should get a Kraken Slayer on her, because that Kraken slayer passive, real fucking strong. [00:25:09] Speaker B: All right, hear me out, though. For this hex plate build, just get Hullbreaker instead. [00:25:13] Speaker D: Maybe fourth or fifth, but like, just. [00:25:16] Speaker B: Instead, just second item it. I don't give a shit. Hullbreaker's so silly on her for the same reason that Kraken Slayer is. [00:25:23] Speaker E: Yeah. It's the same interaction. Yep. [00:25:25] Speaker B: And Hullbreaker has 500 health on it and deals damage based on your health. And if you're going a hex plate Titanic Hydra type build, you're dealing damage based on your health. You could literally go, hex plate, Titanic Hydra, Hullbreaker, overlord's blood mail. Because why not? [00:25:43] Speaker D: It becomes a very interesting, like, dichotomy decision on how to do these things. Because Hullbreaker, it will do less damage straight up than Kraken will for you. But again, you got a lot of health on there and it gives some move speed. [00:25:58] Speaker E: Yeah. And that's crazy for me. [00:26:01] Speaker D: Crazy stuff. [00:26:03] Speaker E: I. I just feel like the one thing I do want to try because, like, now, now that she's been out for almost two weeks, I'm hoping that. That the. The hype is down and I'll be able to get her a little bit. [00:26:13] Speaker D: Her. [00:26:13] Speaker B: Her win rate is down enough that I think the general population is not Interested anymore? Only the people who are actually interested in playing the champion here. [00:26:21] Speaker E: Yeah. Which is good. [00:26:23] Speaker D: Unfortunately, I do have to push for that one. As of yesterday, she is still at a 23% pick rate and a 40% ban rate. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Right. For the whole patch. But that includes her insanely high pick rate early. [00:26:36] Speaker D: Yes, it does. [00:26:37] Speaker E: Yeah. The one thing that I am curious about because I. I really feel that they want her bound to Hurricane. So for me, I feel that her build is a standard crit carry. You know, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you can't do with what y' all are talking about. [00:26:56] Speaker B: That is the most damage. [00:26:58] Speaker E: It is the most damage. [00:26:58] Speaker B: That is her highest damage build. [00:27:00] Speaker E: But I play the highest damage squishiest champion. Like just how I play. Right. See, the one thing I'm curious about is the survivability trade off of PD versus Hurricane. Because like, if I can just move faster, right? And you know, PD is still going to procure on the longest range single target I can get. Right. And it's still going to do my splash when my Q's active. So I'm curious if I should be considering pd. [00:27:35] Speaker D: I think you should do instead. [00:27:37] Speaker B: I have a simple reason to disagree. Ynara already gets to be ghosted with her E. You get less value out of PD than other champions would because part of PD's power is that it gives you ghosting so you can walk through things. [00:27:51] Speaker A: I think she'd be a really more. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Attack speed than Hurricane, to be clear. [00:27:55] Speaker A: But I think she'd be a really strong abuser of the quick blades because of her dash. I think so. [00:28:03] Speaker D: It's terrible. [00:28:04] Speaker A: I think. I think it would be good on her. I mean, it gives her. It keeps her dash up longer. Like she'll be able to use her dash. [00:28:10] Speaker D: She can only dash while her alt is up. [00:28:12] Speaker A: Or not her dash. Just the movement speed steroid, I'd say. I think it's a good item probably. I mean, I can't speak for me. [00:28:18] Speaker E: Hey man, I'm just gonna throw stats out. Like the stat sites do not support the Flicker Blade. But at the same time, like, go forth and. And do science. [00:28:27] Speaker D: Yeah, so. So like the. The science that I can. I can give you a rough one on there. The. The base movement speed from Phantom Dancer is probably better than the slight cooldown reduction from Flicker Blade to get your passive up sometimes more. Yep. [00:28:43] Speaker B: And more importantly, the Q is still hardbound between four autos on Champions or eight autos on Minions to be able to Stack it regardless of Flickerblade's resets. [00:28:53] Speaker D: Yes. So it would only do her W and her E. Yes. [00:28:57] Speaker E: Just throwing it out there because I'm part of the coachless stat site. Third item PD is actually positive, whereas first and second, it is not like. [00:29:09] Speaker D: Yes. And that is what like. [00:29:11] Speaker E: And it's also good versus range and good versus tanks, which is interesting. [00:29:15] Speaker D: Yeah. So she's a tank shredder. It's by far the most dps. But the thing is, is like a lot of. A lot of people have been going untol into Hurricane because everyone seems to be enamored with Hurricane. [00:29:28] Speaker C: Yep. [00:29:29] Speaker E: I. I. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Like five of her top. [00:29:33] Speaker D: Six builds and it's a real problem with like, she's got like a 46% win rate still. [00:29:40] Speaker E: I still don't think that's because of the itemization and that's people getting used to her. [00:29:44] Speaker B: All right. Part of it, I think, is the itemization. I think Hurricane. Second is bad. I think it's fine. Third, to be clear. [00:29:52] Speaker D: Yes. [00:29:53] Speaker B: Part of it also, I think is a lot of people just straight up losing the game early when you don't even have a passive yet because you have no critical. Especially if you're rushing Yunitaal. You have no crit until like level 10 11. So you do not have a passive early. And they're maxing Q first. I think that's wrong. [00:30:11] Speaker E: Whoa, dude. It gives you 65% attack speed after. [00:30:16] Speaker B: Stacking it early game when you have no attack speed built in items yet. Are you going to have your Q stacked for every brawl? Fuck no. Half the time you literally do not have an ability. You are a cannon minion because you are maxing Q. [00:30:31] Speaker D: What would you max Q once you. [00:30:34] Speaker B: Have your ult Q is good? I think you should be putting at least three points in W before you max Q. [00:30:39] Speaker D: You advocate Morgana three points into one, then full stack the other. [00:30:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:44] Speaker B: Because her W is fantastic Wave clear. It scales well with ranks and it functions fully from level one. Even in a quick skirmish where you don't have time to stack your Q. [00:30:57] Speaker D: On Minions first, that's that the base damage on that W is really high. And so we should like pretty point out. There's a dot point on that. It starts at 5 per tick and goes to 30 per tick. [00:31:10] Speaker C: Yep. [00:31:11] Speaker B: And it ticks like every quarter second. [00:31:14] Speaker D: That's one. That's one rank. I'm sorry. Five minute. There's an initial five to 30. [00:31:19] Speaker E: God damn. There's. [00:31:20] Speaker D: There's initial and there's expander. [00:31:21] Speaker E: How to do that? Ugh. [00:31:23] Speaker D: She. She has. She has two different ratios based on when it is in the thing. [00:31:27] Speaker C: Yep. [00:31:28] Speaker B: So like the correct build for her, you need to be putting like 3 points in W and then you can shift and pivot to Q. Because once you have your ultimate, you can get your Q on command if there's a fight that breaks out before you have a chance to stack it. [00:31:41] Speaker E: Yeah. So again, I haven't. I haven't played enough like. Like actual games just yet, but I haven't. I haven't done a level one brawl just yet and. Or I. I did a 2v2 skirmish and I did not find throwing out my Q like, getting it stacked to be like game changing. [00:32:05] Speaker D: You have to be weirdly positioned for it to be very strong because obviously it stops at Minions. It stops immediately when it hits a minion. Interesting point to note. Arc of judgment that this W does different things based on level. And with Minions, it's a weird ability. [00:32:22] Speaker C: Yep. [00:32:23] Speaker D: It has three separate points based on her ult when it deals judgment to minions 50 to 75 to 100%. But also it executes them if they would be killed by six more damage instances of the effect. So it does have a. Oh, no, it's almost gonna kill. It kills. [00:32:42] Speaker B: It's pretty great. Like, I don't know that it's worth putting all five points in because I do think once you have your ultimate, you need to start putting the points in Q immediately. But I definitely think some of her win rate suppression is just people putting level 4 and 5 into Q and essentially gaining 5 on hit damage per level up. That's all you're getting because you can't activate your Q in time because. Oh, the wave is dead. Oh, we're going for the next wave. Oh, the jungler's here. Fuck, I got one auto attack off. And now we're fighting. And by the time you've stacked your Q because you have no attack speed because it's early game, it's too late. I also think this is a good argument for possibly going hail of blades on her just to be able to use your Q early. I think lethal tempo is better still. [00:33:28] Speaker E: I will say, okay, I used to hate lethal tempo. I just. I felt like fights were just too short. Like, dude, I'm getting three autos off. Like, when am I ever. I will say I have gotten her on Lethal Temple way more than than any other champion ever. And I don't really know why. So. [00:33:51] Speaker D: Because the splash. Each one of those prongs activates the Lethal tempo proc. [00:33:56] Speaker E: Okay, so when you attack with the queue. Yeah. [00:34:01] Speaker D: And you hit two champions instantly, you get two stacks instead of. [00:34:04] Speaker E: Instead of the one, which all of a sudden I'm at six. Just almost instantly. Because I can get three, which. [00:34:10] Speaker B: Which might be a bug because Lethal tempo is supposed to be on attack, not on hit. But while it works, enjoy it. [00:34:18] Speaker D: But also you're getting the auto attack reset. That's another reason. [00:34:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:22] Speaker E: Yep. You're getting the auto reset and just to. Because I don't think I covered it in case y' all haven't gone that hard on her yet. When you use your W and E in its normal form, the non empowered form, when you use your R, it resets the cooldown on the W and E. So it's really important that especially the E that you E get your attack bonus movement speed into R back into E. So you've got to make sure that that's there. [00:34:58] Speaker B: It's really important with the W too, because the laser has a minor delay before it fires and it's basically impossible to miss if they're slowed from a non ultimate version of your W first. So if you throw the bead immediately R and hit the laser, you just burst for a shitload. [00:35:13] Speaker D: Speaking of this for the point, if you E. Well, in your ultimate, when it's at the dash, you move the laser with you. So point the laser E. You can move forward to get extra range or reposition it if they move. [00:35:26] Speaker C: Yep. [00:35:27] Speaker D: It works like Aatrox, which is not. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Intuitive, especially since the cast time of the laser changes based on your attack speed. [00:35:37] Speaker E: Yeah, based on your attack speed. It's really weird. Why would they do that? That's just. [00:35:42] Speaker D: It's meant to make it so that it works faster so that if you have a more attack speed, it's worth it to cast your razor. [00:35:48] Speaker B: They don't want you to reach a point where you're like, oh, well, I attack two and a half times a second. It's a DPS loss to hit my ultimate laser. [00:35:55] Speaker E: Oh, okay. [00:35:57] Speaker D: Yeah. Because I would essentially outside of that for the slow. It is a brutal slow. It is a 99% slow. [00:36:06] Speaker E: And that's actually better because like Jesus fucking Christ, that's a fucking wither. [00:36:10] Speaker D: It's a one second slow, but yeah, yeah. [00:36:12] Speaker B: And it does decay. So it isn't the worst, but it definitely. It feels brutal when she tags you with it and you're just like, oh God, I can't move for a moment. So how does she fit into a Team. Like how would. What does Yunara do in a team? She's an ad carry, obviously. She brings the damage. [00:36:34] Speaker D: She is. She is a team fighter to carry through and through. You don't get her for dueling. You don't get her for early game pressure. You don't get her for late game carry potential either because she is weaker than a lot of the other late game hyper carries. She is team fight queen. Like Sivir. She's also very, very good at wave clear. [00:36:54] Speaker E: Yes. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Like Sivir, quite literally, you can just w a wave late game when you've got like or not even late game. Once you have your like Infinity edge and your Yuntal, you can just throw your W at a wave as it walks in and it's almost dead. It's great because they're all lined up. You just fire it right into the line. It hits each one in succession and just keeps going and just wipes them all. It's glorious. [00:37:19] Speaker E: If you are running the alternate builds that were discussed here, I do feel that you can go after the back line a little bit more. She doesn't have like the. The super mobility that like Kaisa has. [00:37:32] Speaker D: But other lateries will probably still shred you because you're no longer dealing as much damage as them. [00:37:40] Speaker C: Yep. [00:37:41] Speaker D: So like you can probably take on mages but you're not facing any down an ad carry of equivalent items. [00:37:48] Speaker B: And I think that's true regardless of what build you do. A lot of her late game strength in the crit builds is just the fact that she is mixed damage. She applies meaningful magic damage that those tanks have to build Mr. For similar to how Kai' Sa shreds tanks. Because she does mixed damage even when she builds her crit build, she does. [00:38:09] Speaker D: Not really have a winning ad carry matchup. Pretty much every other ad carry beats her in a 1v1. [00:38:16] Speaker C: Yep. [00:38:17] Speaker D: With equivalent items. We have to point that out. You can win. [00:38:21] Speaker B: But she has one matchup in bot lane that she is just across the board positive in. In solo queue. You want to guess what it is? It's kind of funny. It's Kalista. [00:38:33] Speaker E: Oh yeah. Kalista's all about singular. [00:38:36] Speaker D: This is slow. It's the slow. [00:38:38] Speaker E: It's probably the slow too. [00:38:39] Speaker B: It's the slow. She has a run speed steroid to actually get out of range of Kalista and she has w gives Kalista by a meaningful amount. [00:38:48] Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:50] Speaker B: Her stats are across the board against Kalista. I just think that's really funny because. [00:38:54] Speaker D: Kalista is one of the premier bullies. [00:38:56] Speaker B: Long ad carry lane bully. [00:38:58] Speaker D: But she pretty much beats her for the same reason that Ash beats her. [00:39:01] Speaker C: Yep. [00:39:02] Speaker B: In largely the same way. You just throw slows at her over and over and auto her down from outside her own range to where she has to actually commit onto you to fight back. At which point your support murders her. [00:39:14] Speaker D: But also because you're slowing her. She's just actively doing less damage than you now because you've cut her items. [00:39:21] Speaker C: Yep. [00:39:21] Speaker B: Okay, so she's a teamfight ad carry. She's not a great single target ad carry. Even if you build pure single target dps, she's average in that regard. We want to talk about her aesthetic real quick and then we'll talk about overall opinions. [00:39:38] Speaker E: Yeah. So her sound design is really well done. I like the bass skin. I feel that they did a really good job with not making it sound like pew Pew laser. It sounds like. [00:39:51] Speaker B: While also getting the Pew pew laser dopamine. [00:39:54] Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without. Yeah. And it's just really well done. I think they did a really good job with it. I don't like the sound design on the skin for the Spirit Blossom springs one, which is sad. But, I mean, you can't win everything. [00:40:10] Speaker B: I mean, I also just don't like the aesthetics on that skin at all. It's. The splash is pretty. I like the splash on her spirit Blossom skin, but her, like, spirit beads are weird little like rubber duck looking things. Her muscles look like they just screwed up the texture on the model for some reason, which is weird. [00:40:35] Speaker E: Yeah, it looks weird. It also doesn't look like the splash, which is even weirder. So it's not like they were trying to translate something visually and it didn't come through. They just decided, you know what? We need a muscle milk mommy here. [00:40:50] Speaker B: I don't understand it because the splash, you have like the thin, muscular stomach look. [00:40:56] Speaker E: Because. [00:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah, she shows midriff in this in both of her skins or base and her skin. But then for the model, they decided, oh, but what if we give her like a six pack that's tilted 20 degrees to the left for some reason? [00:41:09] Speaker D: She's. She's lithe like a martial artist. She's. She's very like the. [00:41:14] Speaker B: The splashes. [00:41:15] Speaker D: The splashes are so well done. The initial skin, very good. [00:41:20] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Base Yunara looks great. [00:41:23] Speaker D: And her sound is like, not just that, but like her voice lines, they're good. They're not like, yep, Vex, great. But they're. [00:41:31] Speaker B: They're not Vex and Briar tier, but they're Solid. I don't know that they're ever gonna match Vex and Briar again. [00:41:39] Speaker D: Of her actual appearance, the base skin, everything else there, her effects. It's well done skin. It's a well done champion. They did a good job making sure that baseline. It looks good and it feels good while you're playing it. She is a feel good play champion, yo. [00:41:56] Speaker E: She's probably. She is. Actually feels pretty smooth. All things. She has. She has the cocaine attack speed thing and it's just been a very long time since they've even uncovered that. So. Yeah. [00:42:09] Speaker D: And I, I have. I have an interesting opinion there when we get to it. [00:42:12] Speaker B: Okay, so let's talk about our opinions then. I think she's any good. [00:42:18] Speaker E: I think, I think she's. I think she's currently balanced. [00:42:21] Speaker D: I think she. Well one, she. She doesn't have good. Good wins versus anything right now. I think to properly like prop her up. She's not even as good of an AOE ad carry as some ad carries just building hurricane. [00:42:36] Speaker E: Yeah, I will say I do not like her levels one to five. I think she's a little too old reliant. In fact, if you guys are part of the Patreon chat, you can hear my ha thoughts as I'm going through and how I described that going through one to five is like licking battery acid as you crawl across broken glass. But once you get level six, once you get level six, it is actually okay. I don't know. I do think at 6, I think they need to give her a very gentle, gentle buff somewhere in the area. There's also this one last thing that I just haven't been able to figure out and I will bring up in the next podcast if I get to it. There's something weird with her attack wind up in levels one to three. It's just different. I drop autos like a lot in levels one to three and like sure, you get used to a champion, but there's something going on that's different from other carries and I don't, I don't, I don't. I can't point to like, I even looked at her attack speed and stuff. It looks the same as everybody else's. So I don't know what is true. [00:43:55] Speaker D: Were you consistently using her passive or Q? [00:44:00] Speaker E: So I'm talking about the. The Wonder Wanda for auto attacks. Attacking a champion. So a champion is. Well, every time you auto attack, you use her Q. [00:44:13] Speaker D: No. No. I mean, were you using the active one? [00:44:15] Speaker E: No. So this is the unactivated One. [00:44:17] Speaker D: Okay. [00:44:18] Speaker E: So the unactivated one where you're trying to get up the stacks. It feels like there's this weird lockout where on a normal carry, I would throw an auto attack on her. It doesn't. And I don't know why. It's only in the early game. It's not. It's not later. And it's like level one to five. Yeah. [00:44:38] Speaker D: So my guess is it's. It's an animation thing that you're having a struggle with with her, which is she has a very specific point where the projectile starts. And it's not exactly where you think it is based on her attack speed. [00:44:49] Speaker B: It's not where you think it is based on her visuals, I think is the problem. [00:44:53] Speaker D: Yeah, her visuals. [00:44:54] Speaker B: She's not giving the correct visuals because. [00:44:58] Speaker D: She'S not throwing anything. There's just another ball that's being launched. [00:45:02] Speaker E: Right. [00:45:03] Speaker D: And so her. Her like her punch animation that she does through the air before it launches something isn't quite where the projectile launches. And once you have enough attack speed, this no longer is relevant because it. [00:45:15] Speaker E: Right. [00:45:16] Speaker D: Much smoother. Or when you actively use the cue, that animation gets lowered. [00:45:23] Speaker E: It gets way lowered. And it's just easy. But like Kai'. Sa. So her wind up. So I thought it was really weird. [00:45:31] Speaker D: Because Kaisa launches a projectile from her hand. [00:45:33] Speaker E: Right. But if you look at the wind ups, it's 16.108, which is Kai' SA's versus 16.225. And like, man, I think it might actually be like a significant difference that it's driving me crazy. And I know that sounds nuts, but. [00:45:51] Speaker D: Like you've played a lot of Kaiso recently and so you are locked onto that, which is another person who does the same animation. And so when you feel like it should be happening, it's not. [00:46:03] Speaker E: It's not. And it feels like bamboo being shoved up my fingernails. [00:46:08] Speaker D: Because I don't have that issue in the slightest. I think it's just fine. But I don't play anywhere near as much AD carry. So when I pop into ad carry, the animation feels very smooth. [00:46:19] Speaker E: Oh, so that's interesting. Twitch's is like 20. [00:46:23] Speaker D: But. [00:46:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's. I think it's. I think it's a mismatch between the visual and sound effects and where the actual wind up releases the project. [00:46:31] Speaker E: Where the wind. It releases. Yeah. [00:46:33] Speaker B: And that makes her feel a little clunky until you get used to it. [00:46:36] Speaker D: But I also think it's partially. You've been doing a champion who is very, very Similar in how they auto attack. Unlike Ash who has a very different animation that. It's almost the same kind of animation that you feel it should be happening here, not there. [00:46:52] Speaker E: Yep, yep. [00:46:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:46:54] Speaker B: So we are talking about opinions on her. I think she just sucks right now. I think she's grossly undertuned. And I think that they need to just remove the crit reliance and let her be one of the marksmen that builds weird shit. [00:47:08] Speaker D: As it stands. I 100% agree with you. I think they need to fundamentally change some stuff with her. It does not feel good to have no damaging abilities but one on a champion. [00:47:20] Speaker B: And it doesn't feel good to literally not have a passive until you get to like 1 1/2 items. [00:47:27] Speaker D: So you. You don't have a passive. You don't have damage on it. You don't have damage on an ult. It. It basically unlocks your Q for you. Yeah, it. It feels really bad. Now as I've said all of this. Here comes my weird thing. I think she's a great beginner ad carry because all she teaches you is. [00:47:47] Speaker B: Auto attacking auto attacks and spacing. [00:47:50] Speaker D: She is. She doesn't have the problem that Ash does. Because Ash fundamentally warps things because of their slow. [00:47:57] Speaker E: Yep. [00:47:57] Speaker C: Yep. [00:47:58] Speaker E: And it sucks. I think she's a horrible beginner champ. I'm sorry. [00:48:01] Speaker D: I think you are the best beginner ad carry because she's just long enough range that it feels good to do some stuff. She's nothing but auto attacks for you. And she. She very clearly teaches you how to play fights as an auto attacker because it's all you can do. I just think she's grossly too weak. [00:48:21] Speaker E: I don't know. [00:48:22] Speaker B: I think that they didn't want to. [00:48:23] Speaker E: Release a powerful ADC that would break the game. [00:48:27] Speaker B: I agree. But I think quite literally if you just changed her passive from her critical strike. Steal 10 plus 10% per 100 AP bonus Magic damage to Yunara's auto attacks. Deal 10% plus 10% per 100 AP bonus magic damage. That's still weaker than Corki passive. But it would go a long way towards making her balanced. [00:48:47] Speaker D: The other possible could be Yunara's auto attacks critically strike. Get rid of Crit entirely. The crits happen and they do this instead of actual critting. [00:48:57] Speaker B: Similar to Ash. [00:48:58] Speaker D: Again similar to Ash in a similar way like that. Except instead of giving a slow. It's just. Nah. It's just damage. [00:49:05] Speaker B: But I just want to take that comparison with Corki's passive a little further. Corki's passive gives him 20% AD as bonus true damage scaling with crit. So if you crit it's 175 or 225. [00:49:20] Speaker D: If you have IE not only one that's 20% which is already more it's true damage. So it's even better. [00:49:27] Speaker C: Yup. [00:49:28] Speaker B: Hers is 10% only on crits. Nothing otherwise it's so fucking weak. This passive is a fucking joke. And that's the reason I think she is weak. [00:49:40] Speaker D: I think I have a way to make it better. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Just changing it to all attacks would open her up to so much more build options. You would still see crit be the highest DPS build but she would have. [00:49:51] Speaker D: I have another way to fix it. [00:49:52] Speaker B: 50 or 75%. What's that? [00:49:54] Speaker D: Give her the Aso Yone treatment. Give her more crit. [00:49:57] Speaker B: That would also work but it wouldn't solve her early game. [00:50:01] Speaker D: Being wouldn't solve the early game. [00:50:02] Speaker E: The. The one thing I want to see out of the passive specifically I want to see some. I want to see items that are AP crit items. That's what I want. But I've always wanted AP crit items. So like I. I just don't. I mean I know that historically it's been an ad bound concept but I. I just want to see that for League of Legends and I want to be the spear on the tip or the tip of the spear. [00:50:31] Speaker D: There is a close system but it's. It's not. It's not the same. [00:50:35] Speaker A: I'd love to be critted by a viegar with 1200 AP. Yeah, they could be awesome. [00:50:41] Speaker E: Wouldn't it be fun? [00:50:44] Speaker D: Well, you can be. [00:50:45] Speaker B: I. I'm just saying the actual mage item could be something like crits deal percent ap over 3 seconds with your spells or something like that. Make it like a on spell crit you burn. So it doesn't make veigar op. So technically speaking a champion like Yunara. [00:51:04] Speaker D: To work there is technically one AP crit item and it's Shadow Flame. [00:51:09] Speaker B: But it doesn't give crit chance. So it doesn't help you. [00:51:11] Speaker D: No, it doesn't in the slightest. But it does make magic damage crit. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Yes. It's just. She's just so fucking weak right now. I'm actually shocked her win rates as high as it is. [00:51:22] Speaker D: I think that's a hundred percent. People have not known how to play against her either. [00:51:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:27] Speaker D: And then they just end up winning because eventually you just kind of wreck. [00:51:34] Speaker B: You know what her absolute worst ad carry matchup is? It's kind of hilarious. [00:51:40] Speaker D: Didn't I just say it? It's Kog'. Maw. Right? [00:51:42] Speaker B: It's Kog' Maw because she gives him a free early game and he's the best scaling ad carry in the game. [00:51:48] Speaker E: Oh, yeah. No. So the true hyper carry. Yeah. No, that just makes sense. [00:51:54] Speaker D: She does bad into terrible into jinx. [00:51:58] Speaker A: What she needs. What she needs is an infinite scaling passive. We don't have enough of those. [00:52:06] Speaker B: True. [00:52:07] Speaker E: Give that to carries. Carries don't get to infinitely scale. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Only Vhagar Sinna. He's. I think literally. [00:52:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:15] Speaker B: Vhagar and Senna are the. Oh, you know what? I take that back. [00:52:18] Speaker E: Yeah, Senna can be a carry. Okay. I take that back. And it's a range. Give her enough souls like. Oh, you could start like hitting. [00:52:27] Speaker D: It's a lot of different things. It's range, it's damage, it's lifesteal, slash crit. [00:52:34] Speaker E: Yeah, it's okay. [00:52:35] Speaker B: I. I have. I have seen crazy late games get to a point where Senna is at 200 plus souls and it is cartoonish. [00:52:43] Speaker D: Yeah, you. You need to flank. Flank. Surprise her or you lose the game. [00:52:49] Speaker B: Yeah, she hits you from a mile away for a ton and heals her entire health bar every auto attack because at that point she has so much life steal. It's dumb. So it sounds like we all agree Ynara is weak right now. We don't necessarily agree about the specifics of how to fix it, but that's fine. We're not game designers. We've been talking about Ynara for a long time. You could tell we wanted this champion to release awesome. We want to play her. We think she's fun. [00:53:16] Speaker D: She's very fun. [00:53:19] Speaker B: Cause we just spent 50 minutes talking about this champion. So let's get at least one of these shorter listener questions in because you guys do have questions in the backlog that we will get to. We do still want more questions. Please Write into theforwards podcastmail.com or drop your questions in the discord so we can answer them on the show. But let's get at least one of these in to wrap this show up. We're gonna go with a question from Toast. Toast writes, how do I play against Shaco? [00:53:52] Speaker E: So first off, I just want to shout out Toast because I think Toast's questions are awesome. Toast, you are leading the charge as far as, like the listeners, I have seen you and you will send us more questions. Send us questions about Rise, bro Toast and Reigns. [00:54:08] Speaker D: Toast and Reigns, send in a Lot of questions. And they. They've been kicking ass throughout. They're carrying all of you. They do. They do emails. They do questions in the discord. Let's, let's. Let's give them a break. Let them actually listen to someone else's questions for once. Someone else send the questions? [00:54:27] Speaker B: Yeah, please. Seriously. So how do you play against Shaco? [00:54:31] Speaker A: So I want to just start off real quick. It depends what you're looking at. Are you depending. Are you laning against him? Like, are you jungling against him or are you fighting off a gank the. Because I would tell you, I've lained against him in top lane before and bot lane in pretty much every lane. But when I see a Shaco, I immediately. If we need ap lock in a brand, immediately. Because Brand is Shaco's biggest counter. Like, I've never lost against the Shaco games. I've lost, sure. But I've never lost against the Shaco as a brand just because of how brand works against Shaco's like, clone and his boxes. It just gives Brand, like, bouncing targets. And it's hilariously funny to watch a Shaco run at you alt and you cast R and you're just like, all right, kill yourself, man. That's fine. See you later. [00:55:34] Speaker E: So I have two tips. The first tips is that I do feel that he is like Twitch. You need to start buying pink wards. It doesn't protect against, I believe his W like his super invis, but it. [00:55:46] Speaker D: Does, unlike Twitch, it does not do anything against his invis, but it does against his boxes. [00:55:53] Speaker E: And the boxes are the CC that is causing the actual problem. [00:55:58] Speaker B: And that's the reason that I think the actual answer is Sweeper. [00:56:02] Speaker E: Because Sweeper wants to tell you where he is. [00:56:05] Speaker B: Sweeper or Pink, in addition to disabling the box. [00:56:08] Speaker E: Yep. Yep. [00:56:09] Speaker B: Sweeper is a combat item against Shaco. [00:56:12] Speaker E: Yep. The other answer I have is if you have, like, time where you're just on tv, and I know that this might be a controversial opinion, but watch Pink Ward for the laughs. So, not because Pink Ward is a good person, but I actually didn't really understand how Shaco worked. And there's no way in hell that I would try and learn how that fucking champion, like. Like I'm not gonna play that champion. Watching someone and seeing how that horrible person goes through and does his thing, it suddenly revealed to me that Shaco Shaco has this little shit pit that he builds with his boxes and he wants people to come into his little shit pit. And how you play Against Shanko is to never go in the shit pit. And he'll get. And Pink Ward specifically will get super upset. They are coming into my shit pit and it's like, yeah, dude, we know you're there. It's not fucking hard. And anytime that Shaco is not in his shitpick, he's a fucking cannon minion. Like seriously, he needs his shitpit to be strong. [00:57:23] Speaker D: That depends on the build. [00:57:27] Speaker A: That really depends. [00:57:28] Speaker E: That could be build dependent, but I would. [00:57:29] Speaker D: Because. Because Pink War plays ap. Pink Ward plays ap. So we need. We need to discuss a couple things with Shaco here. This is entirely dependent on where he is and what he builds. If he is a support, you no longer have bushes that you are safe to fight in. Unless you have something else that can guarantee that bush is safe. You are not. Yeah, you are not able to. Like he. He extends zones. So the to play against him as a support, you need to ward farther forward than you think by about one bush because his invis doesn't last a long time. But it's also a jump which gives him a lot of movement. So ward slightly farther than you think you do. Or if he is in the jungle. This is the other part Ward his camps. [00:58:19] Speaker B: Yes, that was what I was going to get to is it does not matter which bush you ward because all he needs to do to gank you from the jungle is walk in lane and queue before he hits vision and. [00:58:31] Speaker D: He'Ll be on top of you. He's also surprisingly commonly played as a support for some reason because boxes are annoying. If he's playing there, you just ward one bush slightly forward because he likes to box in the front bush and then hide in the one behind it. [00:58:45] Speaker C: Yep. [00:58:47] Speaker D: Playing versus him top lane, he. He's almost always going to be AP because other top lanes destroy him as ad. Which means you got to play the same way as you would against the support. Your goal is top lane. [00:59:01] Speaker B: A lot like singed. He's just there to be a nuisance and annoy you more than he is to beat you directly. [00:59:06] Speaker D: The key of facing versus AP Shaco. Don't be frustrated and chase the Shaco. Once you get hit by one box. Done. Stop. You're not going any forward. He's got two more behind it. You're not chasing it if he's already. [00:59:21] Speaker B: Too late when you hit the first box because there might be another one already behind you that he's now going to fear you into and chain it. [00:59:27] Speaker D: Yeah, AP Shaco is. His goal is to frustrate you and annoy you and then taunt you into a position where you die. Jungle Shaco is a very different scenario. Jungle Shaco is a gank machine. Go guard him. [00:59:41] Speaker E: Okay. The one thing though that the way his ult works, like, I never would have ever gotten that without actually just seeing someone play Shaco a bit. And I'm not even talking, like, I watch Pink Ward like a ton. I just needed to watch like 10 videos of him. Most of us would like, me and my fiance were like laughing at him while he's being shit kicked out of him. Like, you just need to understand how that ult works, which is very unintuitive. But I don't know. Again, it's probably AP So clones are. [01:00:13] Speaker D: Clones are very different. So yeah, Jungle Shaco, you hoard his camps. You hoard his camps because you can't ward to deny him near you because he will jump over walls and we're in low inches. So your goal is to find out where he isn't so you have a better idea of where to shift towards. And then the last part is AD versus ap. [01:00:33] Speaker A: Another thing like about Shaco. So an AP Shako is like we mentioned, is always going to want to like trick you. Like, hey, come into my shit pit. Like, that's how he is strong. Other than that, like, if you can catch him when he's out of stealth, like, he dies super quick like an AP Shaco does. An AD Shaco dies super quick. The trick is, is catching him out of stealth, do some damage to him and like let him go do his thing. Because he's never going to confront you head on and try to. He's just not. He is going to jump out of stealth and kill you. There's a reason why AD Shanko always runs hail of blades and because he can auto you once go into his alt, his clone will hold on to that attack speed the entire duration of his clone. And he can just beat you up with a clone. I've been playing a lot of Shaco recently and that clone can 1v1 almost anybody if he's ahead. So you don't fight the clone, you run away. [01:01:33] Speaker D: Shaco's clone is a monster to fight. And if both of them are in a location beating on you, it is very difficult to fight them. They become a very different machine. Disengage becomes your friend because he's already used his engage to get on you. [01:01:48] Speaker C: Yep. [01:01:49] Speaker B: Yeah. The. [01:01:50] Speaker A: The opposites AP to AD they use their cues and completely opposite. And AP Shaco will not use A deceive to get onto you, he will use it to get away. And then AD Shako uses it to get right on top of you. Like they're complete opposite play styles. So the best thing is to like wait down those cooldown windows and then get on top of him. And like you gotta have some kind of form of cc, you know a form of a disengage or a dash to get away from the CC of his boxes. You just have to be able to a Shaco player good Shako players mind. And I I play with a guy who's only play Shaco is a truly messed up mind. Like you have to have like they have. They're playing like 17 steps ahead. They're playing like 17 steps ahead. They're like, okay, I'm gonna put this box here, this box here. Because if you walk into a Shaco box, you get feared away from it. So they'll try to place it to where you get feared into another box. And that's how like an AP Shaco is all around his boxes and his alt. Other than that, his his E is. [01:02:55] Speaker D: Minuscule damage poke does is he poked is surprisingly strong. [01:03:01] Speaker A: Not disagreeing with that. [01:03:02] Speaker D: It's not the most damage, but it's surprisingly strong. Do not underestimate it. [01:03:07] Speaker A: Just don't play into an AP Shaco's box game. That's the best counter against him and just blow him up when you get a chance. [01:03:14] Speaker B: There is one thing that is consistent for all versions of Shaco though. He does a whole bunch of bonus damage if he hits your back. Yes, Shaco is one of the very few champions that facing direction matters a lot. [01:03:29] Speaker D: Him and Cassium. [01:03:30] Speaker B: Most people don't know this. His dagger. If he throws his two shiv poison his E dagger at you, it does bonus damage. If you're facing away from him, it has a bonus on it. And it gets a bonus multiplier if you're low health. You can literally sometimes survive a Shaco combo. As you're running away, he throws that dagger to finish you. You just briefly turn around to face him. When the dagger hits you, it does less damage. And then you keep running away. It often won't save you because the dagger hits like a truck when you're low. But sometimes it literally is the difference between death and not death. [01:04:05] Speaker D: And Shaco generally stops chasing you. Once he's throwing that dagger, he tosses it and he walks the other way. [01:04:10] Speaker B: Because he's already blown his ability to gap close on you. He's not gonna catch you Further, that's his finishing move. [01:04:15] Speaker A: Another thing about like a Shaco clone is being able to understand and recognize what who's the clone and who's not the clone. So a Shaco clone is going to not have burn effects if you've autoed him. Kai says passive veins. Passive. It will not have that on there. It will have lower resistances because it gets blown up a lot quicker. [01:04:39] Speaker D: Health out of a thing that's not real Shako. [01:04:43] Speaker A: So recognizing which is the clone and which isn't, at nine times out of ten, it's not. It's. It's the clone. Like it's. It's the clone. He's sending the clone in onto you. So just knowing that you can. Knowing that is half the battle. Because that gets away from a burst of cc. A nuke if he's ap. So you just. It's figuring out the real clone. Blowing that one up or blowing up the real clone. Blowing up the real Shaco. Disengaging CCing. Don't play into him. That's the main counters to him. [01:05:21] Speaker D: The biggest thing with Shaco. [01:05:23] Speaker B: I was gonna say warding where you think he's going to set up from. So for example, in mid lane, if you have the hallway warded, not the bush, the hallway leading up to the lane. Very frequently what a Shako will do is he will summon his ultimate out of sight. So you can't preemptively know which one's which. Send his clone in and then cue himself in a moment later. [01:05:49] Speaker E: This is actually. That's why like seeing it. Seeing someone like Pink Ward, like seeing how that Ult Q thing works is really important because it. Like I said, I'm not gonna get in and play that champion. It's too old. But it's so clunky. [01:06:06] Speaker B: The key here, if you see him cast his ultimate, you have watched them split. When he uses an ability. That's the real one. [01:06:14] Speaker A: No, they mirror. They mirror abilities. [01:06:16] Speaker D: No, they. They can't Mirror two shift. They can't mirror jump. [01:06:19] Speaker A: No, it'll throw a dagger. It'll throw a dagger. [01:06:22] Speaker B: Nope. [01:06:22] Speaker A: And it'll act like it's putting down a box. [01:06:25] Speaker D: It will make animation with him. But the dagger only comes from Shaco. [01:06:29] Speaker B: It only deals damage from Shaco. It's very obvious. But what I mean more is when he uses his blink. Because the way Shaco's do that play, they alter when they think they're out of vision. They send the clone in and then they blink in. You know which one's which now there's nothing he can. He can fake there. [01:06:50] Speaker D: This. This is why it is very important to put that one bush farther than you think. [01:06:55] Speaker C: Yup. [01:06:55] Speaker B: You want to see him cast his ultimate to set it up. Because Shaco's no better than to ultimate in a fight unless they're using it to dodge a specific ability. Nowadays, because there's so many effects that just stick on Shaco after he ults that, you could just tell which is which pretty easily. Like, red buff is enough. [01:07:14] Speaker D: The easiest. Like, if you are just. You see a Shaco and you want to not deal with it. Shaco has problems versus bruisers. That is. That is his big weakness. [01:07:24] Speaker A: Renekton Urgot, especially Urgot w just kills boxes immediately. Irelia. [01:07:33] Speaker B: Loves it. It's like, thanks for the free dash target to stack my passive so I can murder you or your friends. It's. It's very silly. The boxes are very fragile. [01:07:43] Speaker A: That's a lot of information. [01:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Of course, the easiest way to play against Shaco is just play Lucian Top. He pops out on you, you dash, you double tap him. He's dead. [01:07:54] Speaker D: You do that, you can instantly kill the boxes with a double tap. [01:07:57] Speaker E: Sad Clown Posse. [01:07:59] Speaker B: Exactly. All right, guys. This has been episode 491 of the Four Words podcast. I might rename this episode Sad Clown Posse. That's funny. We'll see. We did talk about ynara for, like, 50 minutes, so I might keep it as a Ynara pun. Listeners will know when they listen to the episode, but I've been Jack Sohlman for Mike of many names, for Pillow Pet and for Codex Ninja. Have a great night, everybody. Thanks for listening to the Four Wards Podcast. If you want to support the show directly, consider checking out our [email protected] the Four Wards Podcast. And of course, send your questions to to the fourwards podcast at gmail com. [01:08:43] Speaker D: So we can answer them live on the show. [01:08:45] Speaker B: That's the Four Wards podcast at gmail Com.