The Four Wards Podcast - Episode 530: Flashing New Players

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Four Wards Podcast. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Hey, what's up? It's Eric Bra, voice of Draven Jerks and Velkoz. And you're listening to the Four Wards podcast here to help you move forward in league. Hello and welcome to episode 530 of the Four Wards podcast. I'm your host as usual. I'm Jack Soman and I've got with me two other wards to help you move forward in League of Legends. We've got Mike of many names. [00:00:49] Speaker C: I'm tired. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Fair enough. We've also got Pillow Pet. Hi guys. We are the Forwards podcast. We have a Discord. Come join the Discord. Come hang out. Come play games with us. Come tell us your favorite, I don't know, tell us your favorite anime in the Anime channel. Come hang out. It's a good time. Link is in the episode description. We also do stream on Twitch. I can be found at Twitch TV jacksonman, Mike can be found at Twitch TV mikeofmanynames and Pillow Pet can be found at Twitch TV pillowpet. And of course I want to give a shout out to all of our patrons who supported us at the shoutout tier. Thank you, Codex, Ninja, Pillow Pet, Skip Pious, Esquire, Labana, Uncle Chrisco and Yeet the Dab for your support. You guys are keeping the show on the Internet. If you want to support the podcast, head over to patreon.com theforwards podcast. $1 a month just tells us that you love us. $5 a month gets you an exclusive feed of some behind the scenes audio of our prep work before each show. $10 a month will get you that same exclusive feed and we'll shout you out at the top of every episode. And all of those perks also apply to our general gaming podcast. Check out From 8 Bit to 4K on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Last but not least, listeners, none of you wrote into the email with questions. The Discord is carrying you. We need more questions. We're gonna run out tonight, so write in to theforwardspodcastmail.com with your questions so we can answer them on the show. Again, that is the 4 wards podcastmail.com link is also in the episode description. So our main topic tonight is we want to give our thoughts on the PvP side of the new player experience. Everyone knows there's co op versus AI. It's a mode that exists. We're not really going to talk about that. It is what I think all of us would recommend to Onboard Someone who's completely new to the genre because it'll let them learn things like how to functionally control your character and maybe like what your abilities do in an extremely low stakes, extremely low pressure environment. But some of us have friends who really like PvP games and play a lot of them and don't want to play versus stupid bots. I'm one of those. I have a friend like that and we played some league recently. She. She messaged me and was like, hey, my other friends want to play league. You want to join us? And I was like, yes. Mike even joined us for a game. [00:03:24] Speaker C: Yes. [00:03:25] Speaker B: And now. Yes. And now with this friend, I've tried several different modes where she's. I mean she is legit, like a level 10 account, like brand new player, but she plays a lot of PvP games, so she doesn't want to do AI. So we've tried all the different modes and I want to give my impressions on what the experience was like playing with her for me and what she told me her thoughts were on the modes. And maybe this will help if you have a friend that you're trying to onboard in figuring out what would appeal to them. So I want to start with Aram. It is the mode we played first. It is the like oldest casual PvP mode that isn't just regular Summoner's Rift. [00:04:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it's the last one left. [00:04:14] Speaker B: It is the last one left. So I've always thought of Aram as a much better onboarding experience than norms would be until playing it with this friend. We started with Aram because that's what the other friends in that friend group play casually like they are Aram players. They don't really play other modes. And Aram came with two problems that I didn't anticipate for a new player. And then these get exacerbated when we tried mayhem later. The first is because Aram is pure team fighting. That's all aram is, is just 5v5 team fighting. She didn't get the experience of farming or attrition through laning phase. Like none of that exists in Aram. It's a very specific experience and this one's important for my friend specifically. You can't pick your champion in Aram. She doesn't want to play as an ugly dude. She wants to be a hot chick. That matters to her a lot. And Aram robbed her of that option. We usually had one show up in the rotation that we could trade her [00:05:21] Speaker C: because we were a group oratragon. She seems to like dragons too. [00:05:25] Speaker B: She does like dragons. Yes, but not always. Occasionally Aram would just be like, nah, you guys get like Urgot and Maokai and Garen and other champions like them. Fuck you. And she did not have fun with that. That problem was exactly the same whether it was mayhem or normal Aram. Have you guys played Aram with new players at all? What's your thoughts on that? [00:05:47] Speaker C: So I can see where you're talking about that. Yes, I have and I think I know what one of the big problems is. And it sounds to me like this is the problem I have with another of my friends who is new to the game. The chaos of an Aram is really easy to get lost in. Yep. For people who are not familiar with that fighting section of like the game. So I have a friend so much who, who doesn't play with us anymore because he was having such a hard time getting the like understanding mechanically of the game. And if we played on main accounts, he was very unready for the skill level that we were playing with. And when we were like okay, Aram is a little bit better, he obviously he had no control over what he was playing. So he had like maybe a one in four shot every game of having something that he enjoyed playing enough that he could understand through the chaos. [00:06:49] Speaker A: Yep. I would say my, I had to agree with Mike on this 100%. So my buddy, one of my buddies that I play with, his wife will join us occasionally and like she's just near the game, doesn't play it enough to like understand it. And she typically only plays Arams with us. But like to me like Aram's horrible way to learn mechanics, like the basic knowledge of League of Legends which comes with Laning and Csing and, and Bushes and Fog of War, like just the very basic understandings of League and none of that like you can learn like Mike said in that fast paced environment of Aram, it's just fight, fight, fight, fight. The only part of Aram that's not super fast pace is typically right before the Minion Wave gets there. Once that first Minion wave hits, it's just there you go. Everybody's trying to kill each other. [00:07:40] Speaker C: Yep. [00:07:40] Speaker B: What I haven't thought about is for someone who's completely new, they don't know what champions do. And when it's a 5v5 you can't really learn because you don't know who just did the thing. [00:07:51] Speaker C: That's exactly what I was going to say was the. The other thing is, is that they Were not able to process and learn who's actually doing what. Yep. So they actually gained no information from. From that. It is as we've talked about. I think it's a great way to learn team fighting. Yep. Unless you have some basic knowledge built around it, I think team fighting is the wrong place to start. [00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was our experience with Arab. That was a long time ago, admittedly. More recently I got that friend to play Mayhem. We tried league again. She played Mayhem with us, Same other people around us. And Mayhem had all the same problems as airam. Combined with the Augments being really skewing the game meant that she just didn't know what was going on. And this is the part I hadn't taken into account. She did not have the game knowledge to evaluate which Augments paired well together. So she wasn't able to get the same high highs of getting crazy augment combinations because she just didn't need know what could make a crazy combination. [00:09:02] Speaker C: Yeah, and I hadn't thought about that [00:09:04] Speaker B: because my thought going into it was it doesn't matter if you're bad, sometimes you get good Augments and you just get to be a God. Because I know what good augments are. She didn't and I didn't take that into account. So Mayhem was also a bad experience. And then the other day we tried again. We started with swiftplay now. So swiftplay the UI for a new player, way better. Like picking your roles and your champion and everything beforehand with no time pressure whatsoever. Before we queued up. [00:09:37] Speaker C: There's a second thing about that. That is something that just needs to be in regulars. It just needs to be in everything. It's the ready system. [00:09:45] Speaker B: Yes. And yeah, that was it. Also, like she had time to look through everything, pick exactly what she wanted, and then click ready. And I couldn't queue us until everyone was ready. Like, swiftplay has some really good UI elements to make it more approachable for new players, more like other games, which is important because again, this is someone who plays a lot of PvP games, especially shooters. So familiarity goes a long way. The problem we ran into in Swift Play is the Swift part of it. Swift Play is a modified version of Summoner's Rift. It is much faster, intentionally so, which results in it being a lot snowballier. [00:10:28] Speaker C: This was something that I didn't anticipate because I was part of this game. It fucked me up more than it fucked her up. I had absolutely no idea where my champion strengths and weaknesses were anymore. Even though I knew the champion very well. And the opponent I was facing very well. It's champions both of whom I play. When I play, I play the opponent champion a lot more. I knew that there shouldn't have been things going on there. They were. I no longer had a fundamental understanding of my, like, my game knowledge is just gone. It's wrong now. And that resulted in me absolutely dying. And, like, essentially because I would go through things go, like, all right, well, I know I'm on power spike here. I should be able to. Nope, that's just dead. And then it was a snowball effect because now they've sped things up and got more gold. So now I can't do anything to reverse that to the point where after two engagements, I was no longer at the point where I could even be like, all right, I'm just going to be backing away. No, not possible anymore. Now they can just dive me with impunity. [00:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it was very snowbally. And that led to a lot of frustration because she didn't get to really enjoy her champion. She got to play the champion. She liked one of them, but she didn't really get to enjoy it. Have you played swift play at all, Pillow, do you have any thoughts on Swift play? [00:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I've played swift play a few times, and I've enjoyed it. But I kind of knew, understanding going into it, how it was an accelerated pace because, like, I read up on it when it first came out. You know, if you miss cs, no big deal. Like, you still get gold in that aspect. It's very nice. It's forgiving in the aspect of CSing. But I see where you guys are coming from with the accelerated, like, game. Like, you need time to be able to think, especially when you're new, like, what your next move is going to be. And this game is now, I think, what is it the cutoff times, like, 35 minutes or something, and then that's when sudden death comes in. I don't know. [00:12:31] Speaker B: We never made it. [00:12:33] Speaker A: But, like, you get gold much faster, so your opponent's going to get stronger a lot faster so you don't get a chance to learn from. It's a very hard place to go to limit test, but it's a great environment to go and learn a new champion, but maybe not as a new player. [00:12:50] Speaker C: This is the first time I have played Swift play as a laner. I've always done it as a jungler, and each time there, I said I would never do it again. I tried it again here. I think Swift play is my. I will Never touch Swift play again. If I have an option to. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah, like, that was my impression as well. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Where I will give it credit is like, this is nothing to do with a new player, but so a new champion comes out and you want to play the new champion. You can select that new champion and there's a good chance that you'll get it because you can select two separate roles. You will get the champion. Like you select two roles. If you don't know how swift play works. You select a priority role and then you select a secondary role. You can then choose a champion for each role that you will play. You can select that new champion or whatever champion for both roles if you want. And that lets you play that champion regardless. It just depends. It's going to be one of those roles that lets you play the new champions. However, it doesn't mean it'll be in the right. Like if you pick. If you throw in a secondary role with a champion into a troll lane, then you're just trolling. But it does give you a chance to practice new champions without having to worry about it getting banned or you specifically getting countered. Like, it lets you learn champions in an accelerated pace. So I will give it credit. It's good for learning champions and God, [00:14:11] Speaker B: I want some of the UI changes that Swift play has brought over to norms. Like, why do we not have a ready check in regular cues? [00:14:18] Speaker C: The ready check is like the biggest thing I think we can do. Like, because they took away normal. The. There. There's swift play, there's draft and there's. [00:14:28] Speaker A: There's no more blind. There's no more blind pick. [00:14:31] Speaker C: I don't know why we don't have a blind pick anymore. [00:14:34] Speaker B: They don't want to splinter the. The. The cues too much. [00:14:38] Speaker C: I understand splintering in the queue thing. I get it. Because that your cues will end up taking a very long time. I think there needs to be a mode where you get to pick a champion where you are not lost for time. Because I would not have learned any information about that champion apart from this ability does this. Every ounce of information I could have learned about the champion would have been fake. What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? Even builds would have been like, well, I barely have time to make a build get together because I'm not in a situation where I can deal with that. So like, I feel like Swift play gives you if you want to play, especially because we are mostly about like bringing things into ranked. If you want to end up playing ranked Swift play is false information. [00:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I Generally agree. So where we landed with my friend group was we wound up just actually just playing norms. And norms were a better new player experience for this actual new player than any of the, like, more casual modes because norm drafts are just ranked without rank. Like, it's the same format. But she had more fun because suddenly the game was slower. She had a chance to try to figure out what to build without feeling like you're a mile behind because you spent 20 seconds on the fountain figuring it out. People weren't blowing her up instantly from a mile away. Mostly. There was one game where we had to lane against. That game was. That game was brutal. [00:16:09] Speaker C: We almost clawed back. [00:16:11] Speaker B: What's that? [00:16:13] Speaker C: That one. We almost clawed back for a bit. [00:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was certainly a game. But even in that one, like, because it was a slower pace, once she started getting blown up, she was able to go, oh, if they hit me with those, I'm just dead. I need to try to avoid getting hit by those. Which is more than she was able to establish in the other modes because everything was happening all at once, all the time. We wound up. Then again, she likes Dragon Champions, so she played a couple of games of Shyvana in the jungle, which resulted in a lot of me trying to, like, guide her on where to go next in the jungle, while I'm also trying to play my role. But I think the jungle was actually a better experience for her because she had more time to, like, ponder what she was doing and figure things out and look around the map and, like, see what was happening. She didn't know where to go. She needed a friend there to guide her. But it was definitely a better time. She got to contribute more and feel like she was doing something in the game, which she definitely did not feel like in the other games before that. She just felt like she was just dead weight. She was complaining about feeling like she was dead weight. There are some things that I did not realize as an experienced player that I should have explained to her, such as skill order. It would never have occurred to me that she wouldn't max a specific skill first. But, like, she played a game of Neeko. She played a game of Neeko, and I just looked up her skill order because I was curious. She leveled Q, W, then E, which, okay, she should have had E first or second W should have been the level three. That's whatever. She put a second point in Q and then a second point in E and then a second point in W. Didn't get her R until level seven. She doesn't know any better. As the veteran player, I should have been guiding her better on like how to skill up her champion. [00:18:16] Speaker C: That feels like something I thought Riot did. [00:18:19] Speaker A: There's an option I think. Yeah, there's an option I think you can turn on. I don't think it's on by default, [00:18:26] Speaker B: but the recommended thing popping up also can mislead you sometimes because it only going off statistically what is the most likely skill up people do next. So if you ever deviate from that order for any reason, it starts recommending crazy shit. But like even like the last game of Niko she played she started putting the points into Q correctly. She got her ult at 6 but after she got her ult she just maxed out E and didn't max out Q until level 13 after putting three points into it. I don't know why I could have guided her and helped her but I didn't because I didn't know she was doing that and it never occurred to me to ask. [00:19:04] Speaker A: There's a lot of things. That's the important part. There's a lot of things in league as a like an experienced or veteran player that just become muscle memory and you don't think about explaining them. [00:19:16] Speaker C: Yep. [00:19:16] Speaker A: Like last hitting CS word terminology we [00:19:20] Speaker C: use terminology is the big one. [00:19:23] Speaker B: We use so much jargon. Even just the phrase last hitting CS to a new player. What the hell does that mean? [00:19:30] Speaker C: What is a cs? [00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's. That would be like what do you mean? What is cs? Oh, creep score. What the heck's a creep score? Last hit the minions. What's last hit mean? Make sure you get the last kill. Like it's so hard. Like you don't even think about it. Yeah, it's everything. Even me trying to talk about it. I still just use muscle memory of what I how to talk about it. [00:19:51] Speaker B: Exactly. So even though normdraft was the best of the PvP experiences for her by far, I definitely could have done more to make it more approachable and give her more information. So that's kind of my takeaway is hopefully I'll get her to play gnorm's again because I enjoy playing with this friend regardless. And now maybe I've got some thoughts on what to focus on to try to give her better tools to be able to enjoy herself when playing my favorite video game. [00:20:20] Speaker A: There is another aspect to this with playing with a new player that makes it even harder for a new player even in norms is because it will try to match you with similar MMRs so if you have a higher MMR, even in, even in the invisible one in norms, it's gonna might match like you might get put with the new player in your lane and then your friend who's new might get put with. I don't emerald plat like someone way above skill level. [00:20:51] Speaker B: I will say in this particular group like by the time we got to the last game, it was me and four other people. Mike wasn't involved at this point. So me and one of the others are the only ones who have ever touched ranked. The other two play league, but only casually. And then my new friend is new. We got matched against four unranked accounts. In an iron account. We got matched against a bronze four and four unranks. We got matched against a bronze one, a bronze two and three unranks. Riot is pretty good if you are playing on a non Smurf account and that is the important qualifier there at recognizing new player accounts as actual new player accounts and trying to match you up accordingly. Yes, occasionally you'll get other groups like yours where there is an experienced player and new players and there might be a mismatch, but it's gonna try its best. Now the reason I mention on a non Smurf account because I was playing on Jacks Oman in A one. I was playing on my main account. Riot knows when you're smurfing and matches you versus other Smurfs. Do not play on your Smurf account with a brand new player. [00:22:06] Speaker C: That is I have a caveat for that one. And here's. And here's what I'm going to say and that this is something that I feel like if you are playing with a new person, it may not be a problem for you to make a new account and not go at full like full tilt of your skill. [00:22:25] Speaker B: No, Riot still knows. They have all sorts of like heuristic fingerprinting stuff. They know that is not a new player account and will match you against other not new player new accounts. So I've experienced that before. [00:22:38] Speaker C: The only evidence I have done with this is I have done it twice with other people. I have played an account, a brand new account that I only played with this person and that is the only time this account was ever played and they were always played together. That account had a much better time than the other like Smurf account that I had originally or my main account. [00:22:59] Speaker B: When was this? [00:23:00] Speaker C: Two or three years ago. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah, they've changed shit. [00:23:05] Speaker C: So they, they. I know they've done a lot better Smurf detection stuff. They this this may be a completely different scenario now but ever since Vanguard [00:23:14] Speaker B: they just know that is true that [00:23:16] Speaker C: they do know your computer they just know. [00:23:20] Speaker B: So just don't that that's my advice is if you're playing with someone who is genuinely for reals new and trying to genuinely just learn the game and play unranked for fun, just play on your main seriously, it'll be a better experience for everyone. [00:23:36] Speaker C: They're going to have a rough couple first games because it will not recognize that that person is a new a new account initially. They they do not necessarily know this is not another Smurf. [00:23:44] Speaker A: I have a funny story that has to do with my buddy trying league for the first time. I just remembered it and he played like previously, like a long time ago, early League of Legends. And he knew that he liked Fizz and he liked Caitlyn and all all things have changed. And he wanted to go to top lane. I was like, okay, it's cool. Go to top lane. And I was like, you get left alone up there pretty well. And he locked in Caitlyn and he went into a Zen Zhao. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Oof. [00:24:15] Speaker A: And to this day he refuses to get back on League of Legends because he got nothing but killed that entire game. And it was just funny. It's a funny story between me and him. Um, but before we close out this topic, I wanted to ask you guys, how do you react when you're playing in these games with your new friends? Especially you, Jack, since you've probably since you've recently done it and you get matched up. If you're in a solo lane or in your lane, you get matched up against a new player. How do you treat that new player? Do you just know mercy and just pummeling? Or are you like holding back a little bit? Because me personally, I hold back like I don't want to ruin this new player's experience by making him look at a gray screen all game. [00:25:00] Speaker C: So that. [00:25:01] Speaker B: So I'll kill them a couple times because that's how you figure out that established dominance. And then what I will generally do is I will shove the wave and roam. I'm gonna go kill their friends. Yeah, that's how I because I'm already ahead. So that is usually the correct play. When you're ahead, the new player that you've killed a couple times is not worth anything anymore. So A, I'm actually playing the game correctly by doing that. But B, that way the new player can, you know, interact with waves and try to learn league of legends learn their champion, whatever their situation might be, I don't know what it is. And I'm gonna go kill their friends because if they're in my game, they probably have a friend who is an experienced player also in that game on their team. I'm gonna go find that guy and kill him. Because Riot's not going to pitch a brand new player who's unranked and inexperienced queuing solo against me. They're just not going to. [00:25:57] Speaker C: So this is where it takes like a minute to learn, wow, this person's just bad versus this person is new. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Yes, because that is the other thing. There is a difference. If they're not new and they're just bad, or if they start flaming in all chat. No, I am murdering their ass on repeat. [00:26:12] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:26:14] Speaker C: There's a couple of obvious tells for newer players that bad players don't usually have in the same sort of vein. And one of those is you'll see deaths in excess of 10 all the time. They will almost assuredly if they are a newer player, they will always have more than 10 deaths in a game where like you as an experienced player are playing them and their CS numbers will be half of what yours is. If you're starting to look at that and you go, so, oh, they're not. They're not csing like at all. [00:26:46] Speaker B: So. So, Mike, Bad players are just like that too. [00:26:49] Speaker C: That is one of the things I've [00:26:50] Speaker B: noticed now, the bad thing in particular. So what I've noticed, new players play league like they would in FPS. In FPS games, every fight is to the death. One of the people involved will die and then they respawn and go do it again. There is where I was until the game ends. [00:27:10] Speaker C: There are, there are two behaviors I've noticed then that are obvious once you've like, oh, this person's just. Are they just bad? Because you'll notice that their deaths are going to be high and they're going to have no cs. The other things are going to be either they're going to be so mindlessly aggressive that you are sitting there going, why the fuck are you still fighting me? [00:27:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker C: Or you're going to find them and they're going to go, why are you casting spells like that? That doesn't make. What? Why? What? Because they'll do something that is very noticeably out of character for the character to do. The most recent experience I had doing that was I was facing an akali relatively recently and they were mindlessly aggro and occasionally mindlessly aggro. Akala get kills because it's Akahali and she just does that. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:05] Speaker C: But to a degree that like, no, this is a 13 Dathakali that had maybe 3/4 of the farm that I did. But she was consistently not doing the Akali things. The go over Poke. Back away. It was never back away. It's go in Pokemon Auto Attack. You're not using your. Your shroud, right? You're not ever dodging the shroud. You're just coming at me every time. There. There are behaviors you will notice, especially if you know champions. And this requires a little bit of champion knowledge to understand that one. So this is. This is more of a. For the people who are listening, who are more experienced around with the game, who are playing with people who are less experienced. This is where you'll notice that you'll have things that are knowledge on champions. Then you'll be like, why the fuck is that colony never using her shroud correctly? She's never dodging me with the shroud. It's always throw shroud. Come at me. I know where you're at. You're right here. You're right in front of me. I'm just going to you. [00:29:08] Speaker B: Yep. [00:29:09] Speaker A: For me. Sorry. [00:29:10] Speaker B: That's why I mentioned the shooter. Thing is that's where my friend who's new comes from. She plays a lot of shooters. So she does kind of have that, oh well, we're fighting now, someone's gonna die mindset that shooters foster like that is how most shooters work. There are a few exceptions, but that is how most shooters work. And breaking that mindset is, I think, an important part of onboarding a new player to league. Because they're not gonna have fun until they learn that not every fight needs to be to the death. [00:29:43] Speaker A: For me personally, like when I know what my biggest tell if someone's new is the way they manage their summoner spells and how they're using them. And the biggest example I have, and I think this is going to be a segue into our next topic, is the way they use their flash. Whether it's just they don't realize the importance of the flash and they use it just to use it in like not just a fat finger, but they don't know what it does. Like they know it moves them. [00:30:14] Speaker B: Biggest new player giveaway with flash. They flash and then stand still. [00:30:19] Speaker A: Yes. [00:30:19] Speaker C: Yeah. So here's my first question because I do not remember what level you get flash at anymore. Because you don't start with it, do you? [00:30:28] Speaker A: It Used to be Heal and Ghost [00:30:30] Speaker B: or something, I think was what there used to be. There used to be a level requirement. I don't know that there still is. I'm looking it up. [00:30:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Because I know it used to be like level 14, so it was about halfway to the base because the cap was 30. [00:30:46] Speaker A: While you're looking that up and another one is, you can look at their runes and see what runes they have. And they might be like, oh, like a conqueror, like Veigar or something. You know, just something weird like you're like, what? That doesn't make any sense. You know? And then you. You can use that with the other context clues you're going to get with how they're attacking or if they're missing all their CS or if they're not moving. If they're moving. Weird. Just you can use all these context clues to kind of know if someone's new. [00:31:21] Speaker C: I think that one is going to be a little bit less common because they have the automatic. These are the free rune mastery setups, I guess. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess now they have it to where like, hey, here's your suggested runes. I didn't even think about that. [00:31:34] Speaker B: So I checked. The last patch note I see on it was in patch 7.22. So literally like nine years ago. [00:31:44] Speaker C: Wow. [00:31:45] Speaker B: Level requirement was reduced to level seven. [00:31:47] Speaker C: Okay. So a person who is a brand new. A brand new account will not gain Flash until after a minimum of five games. Because I think you still have to do like two or three basic games and they give you like a level, a piece like intro level things. It's been a while since I've done the intro system, but I remember you having to do a couple things before you could get into regular games. And you were like level two or three before that. [00:32:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm not sure what the current new player experience forces before you're allowed to [00:32:19] Speaker C: do other things, but I guarantee you it's before seven. So you do not have access to Flash immediately. And they will not. That is one of the things that you said is absolutely correct. If someone flashes and stands still, that isn't trying to do a bait because like that is something that is a couple of people will like try and bait into a bush. Oh no, they didn't recognize they were slightly off of a bush. [00:32:43] Speaker B: Okay, I found the list. At level one, you're only allowed to access Co Op versus AI, Heal and Ghost and the free champion rotation. At level two, you're allowed to access the practice tool and you're given a champion at level three, you're allowed to access. It says classic 5v5 blind pick, but I think that's Swift play now. And Aram, at level four, you get exhaust and barrier. At level five, you get access to the hextech crafting menu. And at level seven, you get Flash and teleport. You can ignite and cleanse at level nine. Apparently that's later than Flash, which I had no idea. [00:33:24] Speaker C: I don't understand. Ignite, not so much. [00:33:27] Speaker A: I don't understand opening Swift Play and not having access to all summoners. [00:33:32] Speaker B: I don't fucking know. And apparently at level 10, you're allowed to play draft mode if you have at least 20 playable champions, including the free rotation. And you're allowed to access featured game modes. So Kayla, my friend, must be at least level 10. I don't know where she actually is leveled at. And then as it reduces. [00:33:51] Speaker C: What the heck is the hextech crafting mode? [00:33:53] Speaker B: That's the. Your like skins, chests and like where you can disenchant things and all that that whole system do. [00:34:01] Speaker A: On the loading screen, does it still show account levels? [00:34:05] Speaker B: I don't believe so. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Where the mastery is. [00:34:07] Speaker C: Okay, I didn't know you are explicitly not given that information anymore. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Yeah, they hide it for toxicity reasons nowadays. [00:34:15] Speaker C: And much the same way they do not tell you people's loading percentages. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:20] Speaker C: Which. [00:34:21] Speaker A: That's been a long time. [00:34:22] Speaker C: Fucking think that should come back. Because let's face it, if someone's bitching at you because you're loading slow, well, that's the least toxic it's going to get. [00:34:31] Speaker B: Yep. So that's. That's the key there is. They're going to get access to these things fast, but they don't immediately. So if you're genuinely like helping your friend play their very first League of Legends game, you're literally going to be playing co op vs AI at first, no matter what, because the game doesn't allow you to play anything else immediately. Okay, so let's move on to our other discussion topic. We actually spent a lot longer on this than I thought we would. Our other discussion topic, we want to talk about the summoner spell, Flash. That's. That's why we brought up when do you get access to Flash? Because Mike and I experienced something the other day in a game which made me realize he views Flash in a very different light than I do. So we want to talk about what is Flash as a summoner spell to us? How do we think about it? How do we use it? What is our intent with it, hoping maybe that'll give you guys some insight into maybe aspects of Flash you haven't thought about. Because it is the most ubiquitous summoner spell. 90 to 95% of all champions should always be running Flash. [00:35:39] Speaker C: Yeah. There are few and far between champions who do not use it or do [00:35:43] Speaker B: not need it, and almost all of those are running Ghost instead or Ignite. In the case of a couple of specific junglers. [00:35:51] Speaker C: There's. There's like, what, three champions that run Ignite Exhaust. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Ignite Exhaust, I think, is literally just one champion. Ignite. Smite is like two or three junglers. And that's it. So let's talk about Flash for a bit. What prompted this is we had a game where, Mike, you were incredulous that the enemy was flashing on you to kill you. [00:36:13] Speaker C: I was. I was originally set when they were doing it, which was. Why. Why would you have done that there? What? Why? What? Which is part of it is the context of the game we're playing, which is one of the reasons where I think both of us have very different feels for what we have here. Oh, this would have been. [00:36:33] Speaker A: It was like that game. [00:36:34] Speaker C: I'm trying to figure out which one it was because it was. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Was this the game you played as Vex against In a Fury? [00:36:43] Speaker C: In my. Oh, my God. That's so far. [00:36:45] Speaker A: When it was either that or the next game against. It was either against. I remember it went against a Akali in one of the games. [00:36:55] Speaker B: And then I'm looking up our match history to see what games we played. [00:36:58] Speaker A: Was it Yone? I think it was Yone. He was Flash queuing. [00:37:01] Speaker C: May have been versus. Yeah. So look, the problem is I don't know who I was playing versus what was going on in that game. [00:37:10] Speaker A: Okay. My match history would be a lot shorter probably. If you want to. [00:37:14] Speaker B: I filtered it to just games. You're both in [00:37:18] Speaker C: some. [00:37:19] Speaker B: Either way. Point is, we played this game and, Mike, you just kind of were dying on repeat a little bit. [00:37:28] Speaker C: It's. It started with, like, the first. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Oh, I found it. It was against an Akali. You were Malzahar. Oh, was it now? [00:37:35] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:35] Speaker B: Yeah, this was definitely the one. And I was playing Ezreal. [00:37:39] Speaker C: Okay. [00:37:40] Speaker B: This Akali was basically just killing you on repeat during the laning phase because you were getting flashed on and you weren't expecting her to just flash Q Shuriken, flip you and blow you the fuck up. [00:37:55] Speaker C: Yeah. So. So part of it is the game we're in versus what's going on. Yeah. So part of the Part of that game is there's. There's a collie who for one half the time does not need flash to get kills. And so most of the time when I view a Kali, it's Akali who has flash who does. Here's my philosophy on things with this. Akali half the time doesn't need flash to get a kill. So why would she bother flashing to get a kill? Two, we have some very heavy hitters. We have a fairly fed at the time Kha' Zix in the jungle who's incredibly dangerous to Anakali. We have a incredibly fed at the time Bella was in Irelia. And we have a super CC in a Sona. So if someone ever shows up, that's an ultimate. And she's just screwed if she doesn't have a flash. Part of those are, yeah, you need to have a more defensive buffer on this thing because those three champions will mess you the up. I'm also a Malzahar, so this is a little bit of. I'm usually a little bit less cautious with Malzahar because Malzahar has inbuilt systems that make him a little bit safer, which apparently Akali can get through in a heartbeat. [00:39:16] Speaker B: It's because of all of her damages. Backloaded on the second cast, Assura can flip. So even if the spell shield eats the first part, it doesn't block any meaningful amount of damage. [00:39:26] Speaker C: So there's. There's a lot of dumb things with her like that. And then there's. It's. It's really hard to gauge how much damage is going to do on the back end of that. But then there's also. I have an all. She doesn't usually build a quicksilver sash because it's not an easy thing for her to fit into a build. So the Mazar attacks is a per pure tax. Why are you getting super aggressive on a Malzahar who is going to be able to hold you in place for our Kha'? Zix? That is my initial point of this should be a defensive spell for you. [00:39:59] Speaker B: So my impression of Flash in a matchup like that, where you're playing the assassin into control mage, or generally the champion who needs to be aggressive to win the game versus the champion who is happy to sit back and catch waves and win via team fights, which is the dynamic of Akali in Malzahar. Malzahar does not need to be aggressive to win games. An Akali that's not being aggressive is fucking useless. So to me, my reaction when Mike was like, I can't believe she flashed on me. I'm like, of course she flashed on you. That's literally her job is to flash on you and kill you. To me, flash is the playmaking tool. It is the source of aggression. It is the I'm going to surprise them because I'm going to suddenly be in their face when they weren't expecting me to be. That's my primary use of flash on every champion I play, without exception. I'm looking to flash stun people on volibear when the lightning cloud is forming above them. I'm looking to flash ult people on Veigar. Generally I'm looking at flash as a. This is how I get in and fuck this dude over. So to me, when you're complaining about her flashing on you, I'm like, she got your ass again. What do you mean she's flashing on me? What do you mean she's doing something wrong? It worked. And it worked because she has to be aggressive. Which is why to me, like that's why I was so upset by this comment is she is using flash correctly in my mind because to my way of thinking, if you have to flash to try to escape a situation, you shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place. That was where your mistake was made. Flashing can sometimes but often not help cover up a mistake. But we don't play League of Legends to try to fix mistakes. We play League of Legends to try to make the enemy make mistakes. [00:41:53] Speaker A: So for me, especially in top lane, top lane you get both sides of this. Mainly you're always going to have aggressive flashes. And for example, with the champion pool that I have, Mordekaiser Flash Q Flash isolated Q Darius Flash Q Flash W with the 5 stack of bleed renekton. I use it on him a lot. Flash empower W Dash Q like get the whole combo off with those champions. Just in general, like using your flash aggressively is almost always going to be how you use it. And your reaction is going to be to usually get a defensive flash. So now they don't have a flash, they don't have health. Now they're scared of you. You're in the upper hand and you have to use it. And a lot of these champions I play at top lane to secure your kills because most of the time you're going to be against. A lot of times it's against a ranged champion anymore. So you have to be aggressive with my like my flashes. But I do use them defensive to, to like Jax said, to cover up like mistakes like, oh, crap, I was standing where I shouldn't have been standing. I got to get out of here now. I got to wait five minutes, and [00:43:05] Speaker B: I absolutely do those too, but it's never my intended use. [00:43:09] Speaker C: There are also some champions, I think where are. If this champion is in the game, this is what Flash is for now. There is no other reason it exists. Malzahar is one of those champions. There's a Malzahar Alt. Flash is not used unless I'm dodging a mouse or I need to do something very, very specific to get out of another lane, like flash over a wall to get away from something. But, like, there are some champions where I. I just. I. I fully see that as this. This is. This button is now for this purpose alone. That's it. Because if. If you're caught with that, there's nothing you can do. The Malzahar Ult just means you're now stuck and you're taking whatever's happening afterwards. [00:43:46] Speaker B: See, in my perspective on that is Flash doesn't change that dynamic. He can flash on you and you're stuck in place, but your ability to Flash doesn't change whether or not he's ulting you unless you have the ability to kill him from outside his own Ult range. [00:44:02] Speaker C: Oh, no, his. His Ult is happening. I'm flashing around the ultimate to get that play to work. Because usually the Malzahar Alt hitting is the playmake that starts and wins a fight. If you dodge the actual hit now you have the power in that play, Half of his power is just gone. The rest of that champion is 50% weaker. [00:44:22] Speaker B: How do you flash Malzaharl Malzah. [00:44:25] Speaker C: I said the wrong name. Said the wrong name here. [00:44:28] Speaker B: You mean Malphite. [00:44:29] Speaker C: Trying to say Malphite. I've been trying to say Malphite makes [00:44:32] Speaker B: a lot more sense. [00:44:33] Speaker C: I've been trying to say Malphite this entire time. That staring at him on the screen. We were talking Malzahar earlier. The words have already happened. Yeah, okay. We were talking about Zahar earlier. The words have happened. I'm staring at a Malphite on my screen. [00:44:46] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean malphite because malphite is exactly what I was saying there. Not Malzahar. [00:44:53] Speaker B: That makes a lot more sense. You had me very confused, Mike. [00:44:58] Speaker C: Yeah, they have far too close of a name for this. [00:45:01] Speaker B: So here's my thought, though. If I'm having to flash a Malphitel, it better be because I'm using that window to go in on his back line that he Is now left vulnerable by ulting towards me. [00:45:12] Speaker A: That's what I was gonna say like nine times out of ten when I'm flashing a Malphite R is or any other big ultimate I'm using it to 1, not take damage 4 for the next part of my plan which is to just go in and kill either the Malphite who just now missed his R and has no way to get away from me just to turning it into an offensive play. [00:45:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:37] Speaker C: There are also conservatively another couple of champions whose if you take flash on this champion. This is an engage button and there's nothing else for it. My one for that is udyr. This is an engage button when there's no other reason to have flash. If you have flash on your deer, it's for engage. [00:45:52] Speaker B: It's for engage and for flashing over walls to steal objectives. [00:45:55] Speaker C: Pretty much, yeah. [00:45:56] Speaker A: I think the same thing about Urgon. It's an engage button now. [00:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:00] Speaker C: Relatively recently there was a random fucking Draven top lane versus me and I was playing udeer cuz who the fuck puts Drave in there when there's a vein on the team? [00:46:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that was a really weird game. [00:46:12] Speaker C: He could not kill me. That entire game. He could not kill me. We lost the game because the vayne was super fed and she won the game for them. But the Draven who was picked into a hyper lane to try and stop me lost lane. [00:46:30] Speaker B: Right. That was the game you were experien experimenting with static shiv to see if it was any good on Meteor. And our verdict was. [00:46:36] Speaker C: It's not our verdict, was it? We. The one thing I wanted to test, I never got to test because I could never do it into Draven. So the reason to do it failed. [00:46:46] Speaker B: That's okay. So like I said, our intention here guys is not to tell you the correct way to do Flash, but to give you our thoughts on what Flash represents to us and how we use it. So you can draw your own conclusions in your own play. [00:47:02] Speaker C: Yeah. So Jax has it as a hyper aggressive version of it. I have it as a pure utility piece. I will choose based on a situation. [00:47:10] Speaker B: And the key is that we're both right and we're both wrong at the same time. [00:47:17] Speaker A: So my. So earlier I brought up in a pre show the flash changes on pbe. I did look them up to confirm them. And right now, and this is remember experimental pbe not anything final. But what they're looking may or may [00:47:30] Speaker B: not ever come live. [00:47:31] Speaker A: May or may not ever come alive. But it Is the cooldown is increasing from 300 to 360 seconds on your first use, scaling up to 450 second cooldown by the third use. Because they're trying to push people to use more summoner spells. Like different variety. And it's changing from yellow to green. Again, experimental. Not set in stone, but a weird change. I just wanted to throw that out because I looked it up, we talked about it pre show. If you want to hear that, you know where to find it. [00:48:04] Speaker C: 450 seconds. [00:48:05] Speaker A: 450 seconds after your third use or [00:48:09] Speaker B: by the seven minutes. That's seven and a half minutes. [00:48:12] Speaker C: Yeah, you're just shy of eight minutes there. That may change the entirety of how that button is used forever, basically. [00:48:22] Speaker B: Yeah. It would no longer be worth using Flash to prevent or cause a kill. If it goes on that long of a cooldown, you basically would only be using it in team fights. [00:48:32] Speaker C: That is a very, very specific thing. And if that change the situation. Yeah, if that is a change that goes live, we can do some speculation on this part. If that goes live, I can now see any champion who has a dash that goes over walls, period, no longer takes Flash. [00:48:48] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll see what happens if they ever do make any actual changes. We don't know if anything like that is ever going to go live, guys. So it's pure speculation. But let's. Let's answer the listener questions we've got. And again, listeners, write in to theforwardspodcastmail.com or drop your questions into the question submission channel in the Discord because we need more questions. Our first question comes from Cinder, who writes, okay, guys, as a bot laner, how do I play around a nocturne jungle? It seems like they get to hit R and delete me from the game. [00:49:21] Speaker A: So I thought about this before we even started, while we had time. To me is this is where you really need to. Because it's hard to outplay. You can't play that. Outplay that. Are you really need to know cooldown timers and cooldown times to know when your safe window is and when your unsafe window is and knowing where you like. Try to get decent at jungle tracking and paying attention to where this nocturne is. And it gets a little trickier later in the game because you get items like Axiom Arc that give different kinds of cooldowns. And my best thing would be like, hey, take Nocturne into a practice tool and kind of learn the different cooldowns as his items go and progress, then [00:50:08] Speaker C: you can go up by a lot. [00:50:11] Speaker A: Yes. So I would say like cooldown tracking for me is my answer on this. To be your best bet, to be safe. [00:50:18] Speaker B: So as an ad carry, specifically the first most important thing you can do the moment you are allowed to get blue trinket, get it and start putting blue trinkets on jungle routes. Drop them on camps, drop them in bushes near camps where you will see where Nocturne is so that you know when he's likely to be able to be in range to ult you. Because if you drop a blue trinket on, let's say the red team, Red buff right behind it. That bush that people often don't go into, that's between red and Krugs. And you see Nocturne path up towards his Krugs and your bot lane, you're good. You don't need to worry about nocturnal. He's too far away to use it on you. If the lights go out while you're fighting bot Lane, when you know Nocturne is on his Krugs, he's ganking the top laner. He's not ganking you. So jungle tracking is paramount for mid game. Which is why blue trinket is my first recommendation. My second thought, if you are an ad carry with some form of self peel, this means champions like Ezreal with Blink, Tristana with Rocket Jump and her ult vayne with her condemn those sorts of abilities. You then get to play the spell shield minigame. If you're playing someone like Ashe or Varus, it is often correct against a Nocturne to fire your spells back to back, cast something else and then immediately ult him. He will usually spellshield the something else reflexively and then you ult will hit him. He's cc'd and you walk away. If you're playing someone like Ezreal, you need to break the fear tether. If you can't break the fear tether, you cannot survive the play. You, you will be dead before the fear completes. You must create enough distance to do that. And that means you may not be able to blink the moment he lands on you. You just may die if you do that. Because it won't create enough distance to break the tether. And then he follows you with his Q so he runs faster than you. You want to wait for him to use the cue, create a little bit of distance, maybe with minions or something, and then blink or blink and flash. If you have flash and it's the right circumstance to do it. My other Thought on how to play around Nocturne jungle as a bot laner. Assuming none of those apply, maybe you're playing someone like Ms. Fortune who just. You have no way out if you know there's a chance of his ult being off cooldown. You cannot stand away from your team. You must be with teammates who have the ability to cc him. And then your job is to hit him with a spell immediately so that their cc doesn't get spell shielded. [00:52:58] Speaker C: So you, you've got to like one of my, my topics in that if you're playing and you know a Malzahar. Malzahar, that name is just caught out of my game this day. Playing versus a Nocturne, you have a new priority in every game. Your board shifting has to change every game. His first ultimate is only like the range of bot lane itself. It doesn't have that long of a distance of a jump, which means you can just ward a little bit farther out, a little bit farther forward, and you have your first gank covered because you know Nocturne's coming. [00:53:35] Speaker B: Now that being said, that does mean as Nocturne, the best way to do your first gank is literally just to follow your laner in the lane. They're not gonna be warding the lane itself. If you just stand just enough far back that you're out of vision, you're still in range to ult when the fight breaks out. And they don't know you're there because they literally can't ward their enemy turret. [00:53:56] Speaker C: Yeah, so that, that's, that's the first thing is your, your words now have to be changed to accommodate Nocturne. [00:54:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:04] Speaker C: Maybe that is warding the camp so you have a slightly advanced idea on his coming, etc. [00:54:10] Speaker B: If you have the ability to. If you're in like a advantageous bot lane place wards past the turret, seeing the wave as the wave comes in. This is something you should be doing anyway. [00:54:22] Speaker C: By the way, the bush across from. [00:54:25] Speaker B: Not even necessarily in the bush, literally just in the fucking lane so that pass the turret where the turret won't reveal it. Now you get vision on whenever they back. You know when they're going to arrive. You know if the jungler's coming to lane gank you. It is a really high value ward place that people do not think about a lot of the time. If you are pushing up and you are like sieging their turret, you should have a ward there, period. [00:54:48] Speaker C: Second part, you, you now need to know what your, your lane ally is capable of because Unless they are going in aggressively and you're going in on fights. And that's a counter engage. Your first thought when the lights go out is get next to him, the person. I cannot be the only person in this range. Yep. Or conversely, if you are already alone and you are nowhere near someone else, it's I need to be as far away as possible. You usually see Nocturnes turning off the lights a second or so before they actually alt. They will ult in advance of being in position to immediately press the button. [00:55:28] Speaker B: So even if they press the button instantly, there's a travel time. [00:55:31] Speaker C: Exactly. So you usually also have a time unless you are within a minion wave of getting out of vision. If he can't see you, he can't ult you. [00:55:41] Speaker B: So you've reminded me of another thing you can do. If there is nothing hostile under your turret and you are near enough to your turret. Flash under the turret as you see him coming in before he actually reaches you. Now he's too deep. He's just turret dove when he didn't mean to. You can turn that into a counter kill even if you die very often because he's suddenly just taking turret shots the moment the fight begins. If there's already minions under the turret, this does not apply. This is literally only where your turret is idle, waiting for something hostile to come in range. That's the only time that advice is relevant. There's a few other champions that that's also true for Nocturne is not unique in that regard. Same thing if Naafiri ults you and you're near a turret, just flash another turret and drag her under. [00:56:24] Speaker C: And option number three is this is the one that is the most ubiquitous. It's always possible there's a Nocturne on that team. Change your build path, become more survivable. You are going to do something else. Second item. Not anymore. It's time to get the the shield [00:56:40] Speaker B: for get a ga if it's appropriate for your champion. If you're someone like Kaisa considering getting a Zhonyas earlier than you otherwise would. [00:56:50] Speaker C: These are like immediately things you're gonna go, all right now I need to change my my identity up. I need to survive the Nocturne. This matters more than my standard DPS reduction because I can't do the damage if I'm dead. [00:57:02] Speaker B: Yep. And for that matter, things like QSS are still good against Nocturne. I literally won a game against a Super Fed Ash as a Nocturne because I was tanky enough to survive the duration of my fear with her hitting me and I had enough damage to kill her before the fear expired and no one peeled for her. If she had a QSS to break the fear, I was dead 100%. She literally lost the game because she didn't stand near her teammates at a crucial moment and did not have a way out of my fear and I spell shielded her ult because she didn't volley first and then ult she panic ulted in my face. So that's why I'm giving the Nocturne side of the experience of like what has have I experienced as a Nocturne player? Because that's I've played a lot more Nocturne than I do any ad carry except Ezreal. [00:57:51] Speaker C: Nocturne's tether range is a weird one because sometimes it's its distance is exactly enough to keep it in and sometimes an Ezreal jump will get it out of the distance and it'll break. So and the most the most important thing if if a single champion is ruining your day, ban it. [00:58:13] Speaker B: Yep, as an ad carry nocturne is a high. Like you should be considering banning Nocturne if he's making you have a bad time or if he's just showing up in a lot of your games simply because he does force you to play differently. Period. It's the same thing. Like if you want to play Malphite, you should consider banning Sylas. Some champions are just the antithesis of you and if they're popular enough to be showing up in your games regularly, you probably should consider banning them them. Alright, we've got one other question we're going to get to before we wrap up tonight. This is from Toast, who writes as you get later into the game as a jungler, should you prioritize getting a lane pushed if your team won't over farming camps Playing a mix of lane and jungle recently got me thinking about how I view the map differently depending on what role I'm playing. Do you mostly view macro the same whether you play a lane or jungle? When I play mid, it feels easier to be in the right place at the right time. Maybe it's because there's less options. What do you think about deciding where to be on the map in the mid to late game as a jungler or in general? So I'm going to start with what not to do as the jungler. You should never catch bot lane farm and deal with the bot lane wave when Baron is up. [00:59:23] Speaker C: There's where the point where I was going to be is what is spawning on the map. Because if you're a minute away from either side spawning, you should be on that half of the map. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Yep. Both for the reasons of so you can get vision control of the area before the objective happens and for the reasons of that's also what the enemy is thinking. Which means there's opportunities for people to misstep and get killed and then you get the objective for free. Especially true if you're playing like an assassin jungler. But true even if you're playing like a tank utility type role. [00:59:59] Speaker C: But we're going to assume that that is not going on. Because that is the first priority of a jungler. Should always be the major jungle monsters. That's your first priority of looking at things. Ignoring that next stage. All right. Well, my lanes aren't doing that. If they're not taking those waves, you should not let that bunch up and hit a tower. Yeah. If you have the capacity to walk up there, take it, and then continue walking on into a jungle ish position. Which is to say getting out of sight so that you have access to roam around the map with out of vision. You should. Your job is not to shove the wave and keep shoving it into towers. Maybe you show up and help push a tower afterwards. I will take it all the way down. [01:00:47] Speaker B: I will caveat this. I have absolutely played games as a jungler who can also be played top. Such as Volibear or Jax. [01:00:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:00:55] Speaker B: Where I was just incredibly fed. And their wincon was like a Tryndamere split pushing or Yorick split pushing. And I could just kill that dude. On repeat. Where anytime there wasn't an objective coming up in the near future, I would just go split push into their split pusher. Because I was the strongest person on the map and they had to send multiple people to deal with me. [01:01:15] Speaker C: There's a couple times when that happens. That's not the standard average. [01:01:18] Speaker B: It's not the norm. It's not what you should be planning around. But in those circumstances, sometimes it can be correct. [01:01:25] Speaker C: Yeah. And so then there's the other part of this one which. Which really is at this stage in the game. The jungle is not yours alone. [01:01:33] Speaker B: Yep. [01:01:34] Speaker C: Your mid laner is going to come in and take farm from you. Your bot lane is going to come in and take farm from you. The enemy might be coming in to try and take what they can. If no one is taking it, fucking take it. [01:01:44] Speaker B: Yep. Don't let that experience in gold go to waste. Just don't throw the game Trying to get that experience. [01:01:50] Speaker C: The the first priority as the Jungler should always be specifically the major jungle objectives. Your barons, your dragons, specifically Barons and dragons, heralds and Grubs. Those are okay to prioritize, but like, you don't need to throw a game away trying to get three grubs. [01:02:14] Speaker B: Also on the same note, if the enemy team is up 20 kills and 100cs in every roll, but they only have one dragon, you don't necessarily need to go contest that second dragon. Sometimes you're just catching a wave, crashing it in a tower. Maybe getting an objective bounty for taking that tower is correct, even with the objective up. We've all experienced those games and the problem is your team is dumb and they will rage at you for being the Jungler and not being there at the objective. It doesn't matter what they rage about, because you being there at the objective would not have changed the outcome. So do your best to change the outcome by trying to scrap together resources elsewhere. In situations like that, you're probably losing those games anyway. But the chance of a comeback is better if you get more gold income than it is if you go through your life away on a Hail Mary. [01:03:08] Speaker C: We've seen some absolutely insane comebacks this past week. Yes. Some games which have been like, oh my God, what the fuck has been [01:03:15] Speaker B: going on in pro play and in our own games. [01:03:19] Speaker C: This is true in both. Yeah. But if you really don't want to have to think about what to do with the lanes of the jungle of the creeps, just grab Lucian and go back into the top lane. You won't have to worry about getting a side wave because you're the one shoving the wave. It's gonna just go with you and you'll take the game with it. [01:03:37] Speaker B: The Jungler comes up to gank you, well, they can't handle you. You're a Lucian top. Alright, guys, this has been episode 530 of the Four Wards podcast. Give us more questions. Write in to the Four Wards podcastmail.com that was the last one we have in the queue. If you write in right now, your question will be on next week's episode. Because we have nothing before it. I want to see you guys flood the damn inbox with questions. That's it. I've been Jack Soman for Mike and many names for Pillow Pat. Have a great night. [01:04:06] Speaker A: Good night. [01:04:07] Speaker C: Good night everybody. [01:04:09] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Four Wards podcast. If you want to support the show directly, consider checking out our [email protected] the Four Wards Podcast. And of course, send your questions to the Four Wards podcastmail.com so we can answer them live on the show. That's the four wardspodcast at gmail com.